21
   

Who destroyed philosophy?

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:14 am
@Razzleg,
I indeed tend not to "suffer fools gladly" , but in my eight years here I think can count such fools on the fingers of one hand.

Jeeprs, I admire your tolerance !
Pepijn Sweep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:18 am
@jeeprs,
What is the better Uni 4 Business & Law combined
Yale
UCLA
USC
Oregon State (Portland(
Nijenrode ([size=49]Brooklyn,The Netherlands[/size])
UvA (Amstel'dam, The Netherlands)
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:32 am
@fresco,
I'm a Libran. I hate conflict. That's my excuse. Wink
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:03 am
@jeeprs,
I am a free-lance Librarian. I have choices in Life.
0 Replies
 
Razzleg
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:05 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:

well I want to stick up for Kennethamy. We are definitely not from the same stable, opposite in many regards, and often (in fact usually) disagree, but I will say that he tries to argue every case on what he sees as the philosophical principles and furthermore that his knowledge of the subject as it is taught in the US, from what I know, is better than most.

There is only so far you can go with an argument, anyway. Past a certain point you can see that it is not going to get through to whoever you're speaking to, regardless of the merits of your case. At that point, time to practise the honourable philosophical discipline of apathea. One can only do one's best.


I appreciate your sticking up for someone who is obviously coming from a different perspective, and I would usually support it. I, myself, am a pluralist, and I welcome diverse viewpoints within any given discussion. But it is not the difference in perspective that I object to in Kennethamy's contributions , but the manner in which he supports, and often fails to support, his arguments.

I am the product of a US academic philosophy dept. And despite the fact that the dept head at the time was primarily a positivist, the department had a phenomenological bias. The fact that he comes from the US is not an excuse, or at best a poor one, for the manner in which he comports himself in a philosophical debate. Even Ken would admit that to claim such an excuse would be an appeal to authority, rather than a real argument.

As far as I can detect, Ken defends no "philosophical" position. He presents premises and arguments, but his only "defense" is to protest that questioning either is an invalid response. Remember, he does not speak philosophese; if you are going to do so, please, defend him in English.

You are right, one can only do one's best when executing an argument, either on the interwebz or face-to-face. But one should be able to expect the same from one's interlocutor.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:14 am
@fresco,
IMO OBBommel
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:26 am
@Razzleg,
Meh Ken's harmless, I bait him for a while then when I get bored with him I ignore him. He likes the attention he gets by nitpicking anything anyone says. Its all good, at least he reads more source material than I do.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:29 am
@GoshisDead,
He should concentrate not on logic, humour him a little
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:39 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
some people just aren't that funny
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:57 am
@Razzleg,
you're probably right. 'Bar-room philosopher' is a phrase that springs to mind. Myself, I did two years of undergraduate philosophy before switching to Comparative Religion. Logic is not my strong suit. But I enjoy the interaction.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 02:06 am
@jeeprs,
I |0V e PF; would not do a thing to break a Rule on purpose.

Can you respond to our Appeal please Robert Gentle
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 02:28 am
@Razzleg,
Quote:
As far as I can detect, Ken defends no "philosophical" position. He presents premises and arguments, but his only "defense" is to protest that questioning either is an invalid response.


I would have to agree with that.

So, when I read:

fresco wrote:
As far as I am concerned, "existence" applies only in the a realm of verbal communication between what we call "observers". It signifies a "structural coupling" or consensual act, rather than an independent "ontological entity" even though the language with which we communicate predisposes us to operate as though there were an "objective reality".


I understand it (or at least I hope I do). However Ken will usually view this as an attack on his sense of normality and respond very heatedly. I think the conflict is between naive realism ("who you callin' naive!?!") and perspectivism. So I suppose I have adjusted my expectations accordingly. But the shift from naive realism to perspectivism is really a gestalt shift. It really is a different world-view, not just a matter of propositional argument.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 04:33 am
and what was destroyed was not philosophy, but foundationalism.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 06:20 am
@jeeprs,
Quote:
It really is a different world-view, not just a matter of propositional argument.

Yes. It is transcendent of "propositional argument" in the sense that traditional logic is deemed to be inadequate. Gestalt, or holistic vantage point are both terms which capture such transcendence.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 06:22 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
It really is a different world-view, not just a matter of propositional argument.

Yes. It is transcendent of "propositional argument" in the sense that traditional logic is deemed to be inadequate. Gestalt, or holistic vantage point are both terms which capture such transcendence.

YippY
Cool
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 06:41 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep wrote:

fresco wrote:

Quote:
It really is a different world-view, not just a matter of propositional argument.

Yes. It is transcendent of "propositional argument" in the sense that traditional logic is deemed to be inadequate. Gestalt, or holistic vantage point are both terms which capture such transcendence.

YippY
Cool


When did logic become inadequate, and how did that happen? Most important, why would anyone even begin to think it was true? What would the argument for that be? How would logic even begin to show that logic was inadequate?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:40 am
@kennethamy,
If you are really interested Question I suggest you start with this:

Piaget, philosopher and developmental psychologist, showed empirically that "logic" was a product of cognition and could consequently not be used to "explain" cognition. His "genetic epistemology" is one attempt to formulate a coherent metalogical system from which to view cognitive processes.

Other authors besides philosophers have contributed to the metalogical considerations of "life processes" with respect to our concepts of reality, including ethnologists and particle physicists, who stress the significance of "observer states" and "the act of observation". Mathematical models including "chaos theory", "fuzzy logic", and "systems theory" have been utilized to provide the coherence for such fields of exploration.

If you follow this at all, you might like to consider your own "observer state" with respect to your acceptance or rejection of such information.


GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:54 am
@fresco,
I know you aren't down with lakoff, however I agree with your assessment of the gestalt transcendental. Fuzzy Logic etc... is the desdcriptive basis for much of modern cognitive science including my favorite, linguisitcs.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:32 am
@GoshisDead,
I just have the feeling that Lakoff is"band-wagonning" by locating performance linguistics in the realm of the "embodied mind". There are other arguments which start with language as the a priori for "thought", and place macro- structures such as "society" as its "corperal body" or point of origin. The justification for such "top-down" thinking comes from the concept of Gestalt involved in "systems theory".
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:44 am
@fresco,
Woot now I have more to read. And yes he claims to be on a bandwagon synthesiszing other's research. I love his work on metaphor. I respect his synthesis of categorical research. I don't know much of his more mathematical and political stuff. He's sort of a Chomsky wannabe that way. The funny thing is that I have yet to meet a Berkeley Grad who likes him. I have never met him, I have met his Ex whose work I really love. Mostly because its more in my ballywick. I have never read Maturana (sp.) who you quote so often. A link to any primer type reading for him/her would be appreciated.

P.S. sorry to the rest of you for the topic hijacking
 

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