With me the argument is between your belief in a Certainty against mine in the process of Scientific Investigation.
Mr. Bing, the Bible has prophecy which are coming to pass in the day we live. These prophecies will involve the last great battle on earth, and plainly tell us the battle will decide who controls Jerusalem.
So what your saying is not much better than the christian. Science makes mistakes. To blindly believe in what science says today, without challenging those beliefs makes for a poor scientist. The process of scientific investigation is full of holes and mistakes, and often biased by the ideas of those performing the experiment. There are some serious holes in scientific theory today, especially pertaining to medicine. Sometimes what we can't explain (yet) is really the truth. I know a little about science, but would never be bold enough to say that science has all the answers, it doesn't.
And as for the prophecies in the bible coming true right now today, take a number behind the countless generations that have said this before you. Every single generation since Jesus was alive has been sure that the prophecies of the bible were coming true in their day. The fact is the bible, and most all religious texts just seperate individuals from God by demanding we believe one way and only one way. Who the hell are you to tell God he can only communicate through one book? To insist that others who have had true communion with him are somehow less worthy than you because they made the connection differently. Honestly, if you have any knowledge of the bible, then you know it was edited severly by people who's livelyhood depended on scaring the masses into giving up other belief systems. That ought to tip you off to the fact that maybe all this "my way or the highway" crap is just that, crap. Crap designed specifically for keeping the masses in line, and the money flowing.
Soooooo, on that bombshell essentially a person commits a murder, and after serving time in the clink realises what they have done is the most heanus thing that has ever happend, they can't sleep with guilt, they truely are lost.They learn about christ, his teachings and understand them to be true. he loves God and follows him without question. He then decides to become baptised and be 'born again' asking for jesus/ God to forgive his sins. According to you if the man is genuine he will be forgiven and welcomed into the kingdom of heaven.
I can buy into that.
There is also another man he is a christian, follows christ to the letter, much like yourself, understands what it is to be christian how to live ones life, goes to church helps at all the local charities. However he is only human and has a complete lapse, takes something from one of the charity places, its not much a trinket worth 10c that he thinks his daughter would like, she is doing a school project it may help with, but he still stole it. On the way home he goes into a store which is being held up by a robber, the robber is startled and swings around to shoot. Another man sees this (he happens to be an athiest he has no religous faith and does not believe in any God) and lunges forward to stop the man from taking the shot, unfortunatly the christian man is gunned down and so is the athiest, both die in the shop and the robber flees and is caught later, prosecuted and sent to prison, he gets out after 30 years.
Incidently the murderer is the man from the first story.
So on this supposition The murderer gets to go to the kingdom of heaven because he truely realised the error of his ways and spent the rest of his life preaching the way of the lord and living by his teachins, truely repenting.
The other two men go to hell, firstly because although christian he committed a sin (stealing the trinket) not long before he died, unfortunately the death was sudden he had no opportunity to repent and he did not get to ask for forgiveness before his untimely death. This man goes to hell. Secondly the other man comitted the ultimate sacrifice and gave his life trying to save another mans life, however he goes to hell because he is an athiest and does not believe in God. This man goes to hell
A little long winded but I got there in the end.
Would you agree that the man who comitted the original muders is the only one who gets to go to heaven?
If so, do you agree this should be how it is?
King David, Moses, and even Paul of the New Testament were all murders, yet they are in heaven. Hanging on the cross beside Jesus were two theives, one went with Jesus to Pardise, the other went to hell. The one theif mocked Christ, the other theif ask Jesus to remember Him when Jesus went to His Kingdom. Jesus told that theif, "today you will be with me in pardise." What all these men had in common who now are in heaven, was they all gave their life to Christ. No matter how good you try to be in this life, when you reject Gods gift of salvation you are spending you life mocking God. The Bible tells us that by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Good works cannot earn you salvation. And it does not matter how good you try to be, just like the athiest in your story. Heaven requires perfection, and that is why we had to have a perfect person die for us. And that is why the Old Testament prophecy said such a man would come and die for the sins of the world. Jesus Fulfilled that prophecy, and all who give their life to Him will have eternal life.
I thought that's what you would say.
In that case your God is an ass who has no compassion or love for the people he helped put on this Earth. How completely ridiculous that a man sacrifices his life tou save someone, yet because he is an Athiest he would not get to go to see God and be proved wrong.
Your Religion is a mess and needs to take stock of it actions and beliefs. I thought God loved all his children, even the miss-guided ones, apparently not. If your God puts restrictions on a man getting into Heaven through self sacrifice, but does not a murderer then your religion is lost, truely lost.
What I've been saying, lo, these many months...some folks, including Campbell are really misguided to the point of being "dangerous", to others, and perhaps, to themselves...
I really don't care what's written in the Bible, because if it can be misconstrued to justify killing, slavery, abominations..."all in the name of God", then it's not worth the paper it's printed on....no, rather, man has corrupted the real message of the Bible to suit his own ends..and to subjugate, control, and dominate other human beings, at least, into their particular warped sense of thinking.
God is not the monster portrayed in Campbell's Bible...God is love, light, truth, and compassion...certainly compassionate to the absolutely worthless human beings, that occupy certain nooks and crannies on this here Earth. Rain falls on everyone. Blessings fall down on those deserving and those not so.
I don't subscribe to all the crap that is in the Bible, the Koran, and any other religious books....I go by my heart, which tells me a truth...to treat others as I would like to be treated...to forgive...to love, to help, whenever possible, and to do no harm. Must be doing something right, because I don't go to church regularly, and I am steadily being "blessed"...and I know in my heart and soul, that it is from God, my father...and no one can turn me around...not even Campbell, and his babble.
Because if God is as he says he is...I reject him...and hope to burn in Hell, as if I could do anything about it. My God is not his God....this I know, cause the Bible told me so....yes, Jesus loves me. (and quiet as it's kept...he loves Campbell, too) Why, is a mystery.
I thought that's what you would say.
In that case your God is an ass who has no compassion or love for the people he helped put on this Earth. How completely ridiculous that a man sacrifices his life tou save someone, yet because he is an Athiest he would not get to go to see God and be proved wrong.
Your Religion is a mess and needs to take stock of it actions and beliefs. I thought God loved all his children, even the miss-guided ones, apparently not. If your God puts restrictions on a man getting into Heaven through self sacrifice, but does not a murderer then your religion is lost, truely lost.
Some one once told me of her personal experience. Her daughter took ill , seriously ill. It was a third world country and while this person was middle class - a poet actually- but third world is well, third world when it comes to medical care. The girl's condition deteriorated.
The priest came and pronounced that the whole family should beg forgiveness at the local church and specially beg forgiveness for the girl's sins & plead for the demons to leave, light candles, say hail marys, do penance, plan a pilgrimage. The girl's father agreed to do anything to save his baby, but surprisingly, the mother - the poet -, refused.
Her logic, which has given me courage all these years since was as follows: If there are indeed demons and if there is indeed such a god that would do this to a child, then I do not want my baby to be a part of this system and this world. Best she dies.
The poet then concentrated her energies on whatever proper medical care the child could be provided, kept the priests at bay and of course the child recovered under proper care.
Well if you think the Bible is just all that crap, why would you think Jesus loves you? Or why would you even believe in a Jesus? I mean according to you, where does the crap end and Jesus begin? Do you just pick and choose what you like out of the Bible? You like the idea that you go to heaven, but you don't like the idea that you could go to Hell. So you just rip those pages out? The fact is, it appears your God has more to do with your imagination, than anything else.
So what your saying is not much better than the christian. Science makes mistakes. To blindly believe in what science says today, without challenging those beliefs makes for a poor scientist. The process of scientific investigation is full of holes and mistakes, and often biased by the ideas of those performing the experiment. There are some serious holes in scientific theory today, especially pertaining to medicine. Sometimes what we can't explain (yet) is really the truth. I know a little about science, but would never be bold enough to say that science has all the answers, it doesn't.
And as for the prophecies in the bible coming true right now today, take a number behind the countless generations that have said this before you. Every single generation since Jesus was alive has been sure that the prophecies of the bible were coming true in their day. The fact is the bible, and most all religious texts just seperate individuals from God by demanding we believe one way and only one way. Who the hell are you to tell God he can only communicate through one book? To insist that others who have had true communion with him are somehow less worthy than you because they made the connection differently. Honestly, if you have any knowledge of the bible, then you know it was edited severly by people who's livelyhood depended on scaring the masses into giving up other belief systems. That ought to tip you off to the fact that maybe all this "my way or the highway" crap is just that, crap. Crap designed specifically for keeping the masses in line, and the money flowing.
Quote:
Originally stated by Adam Bing View Post
Being a good person - loving others, looking after this planet, helping the needy, eschewing violence, lies, hurtful behavior - is good enough if you are an atheist.
However to be a good Christian or Muslim, it is not good enough to be just a good person. You need first and foremost, before even thinking of being a good person, to acknowledge Jesus as your lord and saviour or Allah as your only God with Mohammed as his Messenger depending on which one of the two Salvation Clubs you wish to join.
Being good per se, is not good enough.
So if you are a good , moral person doing no harm to anyone and leading your own life in a peaceful manner BUT you do not believe in their god, you are destined to hell according to the christians and the muslims.
What can be more irrational than such a doctrine? Or more unfriendly and offensive to other cultures?
Please think about this.
Lets add that you can be immoral, break the law, and look out only for yourself... as long as YOU BELIEVE, and repent.
So George does great things for the world and is a good person, goes to hell. and John destroys the world, and says "im sorry" and goes to heaven.
TO ALL THE BIBLE THUMPERS, that is how your god works? Guess what, you all can keep him. Even people like Ted Bundy apologized (and meant it)
Well God loved the world so much He gave His only Son to save the World. Yet this world as always is trying to tell God how it's going to be. The world is telling God. "We deserve to be in your heaven because we are so good. And God, we don't care about your Son, if you want to see us in your Heaven, then you better learn how to play the game by our rules.
God's people obey Him, they do not tell God how it has to be. God is looking for servants, not dictators. We have enought of them all ready.
And Gods heaven will be filled with willing hearts that obey God, not the other way around. And if God was impressed with numbers, He would of destroyed Noah and his family and saved the world.
Being human, it's impossible to obey him....you already wrote salvation isn't achieved through "good works", of which "obedience" would be considered part of. If that is true, and belief on Christ is the only requisite for entry into the kingdom...they you have contradicted yourself. And the Bible has contradicted itself...better yet, man has corrupted the Bible, and has misconstrued "the Word". The only requisite for salvation is belief that Christ died for our sins.
Well I don't like the idea of heaven and hell, neither is there, certainly not in the capacity you want it to be. Not when murderers get in to heaven and people who make the ultimate sacrifice do not. As I said Your interpretation of how to get in is completely messed up. A god that wants obedience and can overlook murderous happenings just as long as they believe in him, ensures that all i feel for you religion is pity and contempt.
Jesus said many would worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Works have nothing to do with salvation, yet works are a window into a person's heart. Jesus said no murder will enter the Kingdom of God. Well, what if the murder believed in Jesus. Why would that murder not be allowed into God's heaven? And the answer to that question is. The murderer only worship Jesus with his lips, but obviously he did not love Jesus because his true nature was revealed when he took another persons life. God unlike us can see deep into our heart. He can see if our heart really beats for Him. David of the Old Testament was a murderer of sorts, yet God could see deep into Davids heart. And God said of David "he is a man after my own heart".
When David was confronted with His sin he grieved that he had hurt God, and repented. And it was not just surface repentence, David really was cut to the heart for what he had done. Doing good works for the Christian only demonstrates for God our love for Him. Our salvation was paid for by Christ death on the cross. And that is why the Bible tells us, that no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law.
It's really sad...but you can't own up to the fact that you don't know what you don't know...In your mind, you know the mind of God...you speak for him, using the Bible as a tool or justification...when it's all fluff and nonsense...God doesn't speak to us through you. How arrogant. May you be struck by lightning....and that can come in different forms, be mindful.
If the Bible was all fluff it's prophecies would not be coming to pass, and if you ignore them, it is you that might get struck by lightning. All christians should be speaking for Jesus, and that is why Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest,where are the reapers? Sad to say, most of the possible reapers are telling the world the Bible is all fluff.
The Bible being fluff is reflective of people using it to their own ends...
I believe the words attributed to Jesus Christ...and never once does he contradict himself...his message is clear...but you might never know that listening to the likes of you.
What do we need to know of prophesies? In knowing, might we do something different? If we base our actions on knowing prophesies....it's the same as believing out of fear...instead of conviction...instead of doing it because it's the "right thing to do"....not because of what might happen to us, if we don't....you don't understand "faith", obviously.
