1
   

Just being a good person is not good enough. You also need to believe.

 
 
Tulip cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2007 12:27 pm
@Adam Bing,
naw...it is human interpretation that has made the various versions of the bible and the religious dogma hard to stomach...or what l really liked "like a pinapple stuck in my throat"...we are brow beaten by religious dogma and people who want to be right, and good but who through ignorance and a ego, become rulers and demand money and allegance.
So l think Richard Dawkins is a man who got sick of the dogma, and decided to take this to the extreme so he could make lots of money. It is extremely niave, to throw in the towel on God. It is a world that needs the experience of God, with the Joy, Truth and Love that comes from this.
Right now especially, when we are at war, we need the peace of God to enter our lifes, and through our lifes, enter the world.
This is not about That and Them, this is about our inner spiritual self and the experience of God. The greatest church is under the blue sky.
0 Replies
 
Tulip cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2007 12:32 pm
@Adam Bing,
naw...it is human interpretation that has made the various versions of the bible and the religious dogma hard to stomach...or what l really liked "like a pinapple stuck in my throat"...we are brow beaten by religious dogma and people who want to be right, and good but who through ignorance and a ego, become rulers and demand money and allegance.
So l think Richard Dawkins is a man who got sick of the dogma, and decided to take this to the extreme so he could make lots of money. It is extremely niave, to throw in the towel on God. It is a world that needs the experience of God, with the Joy, Truth and Love that comes from this.
Right now especially, when we are at war, we need the peace of God to enter our lifes, and through our lifes, enter the world.
This is not about That and Them, this is about our inner spiritual self and the experience of God. The greatest church is under the blue sky.
Adam Bing
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Oct, 2007 06:25 pm
@Tulip cv,
Tulip;43552 wrote:
naw...it is human interpretation that has made the various versions of the bible and the religious dogma hard to stomach...or what l really liked "like a pinapple stuck in my throat"...we are brow beaten by religious dogma and people who want to be right, and good but who through ignorance and a ego, become rulers and demand money and allegance.
So l think Richard Dawkins is a man who got sick of the dogma, and decided to take this to the extreme so he could make lots of money. It is extremely niave, to throw in the towel on God. It is a world that needs the experience of God, with the Joy, Truth and Love that comes from this.
Right now especially, when we are at war, we need the peace of God to enter our lifes, and through our lifes, enter the world.
This is not about That and Them, this is about our inner spiritual self and the experience of God. The greatest church is under the blue sky.


Tulip, The God Delusion is the last of Mr.Dawkins books and frankly not one of his best even though its extremely effective in making the point. Please read THE SELFISH GENE or CLIMBING MOUNT IMPROBABLE or THE BLIND WATCHMAKER. These writings have contributed greatly to biology and to bringing it to the lay person like me.

Reading them you will see that this man is a great thinker and scientist with a passionate point of view. I think making money is not the reason a person with his intellect writes.
0 Replies
 
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 12:44 am
@Tulip cv,
Tulip;43487 wrote:
It is interesting, you both believe more in yourself and your own opinion than you do about anything related to God. If you believed in God and surrendered to his will, rather than your own, then you would be accepting, and humble, and understand that your thoughts mean nothing.
Speaking your own views is not surrender. Pushing your views is not surrender, it is your ego believing it's own viewpoint.
On earth, throughout the ages, avators existed in all countries, in all cultures, within and without of all languages, some where known by the world and some where not known by the world, but avators, such as Jesus, were not just sent exclusively for a select group, just as heaven is not just for a selected group.
Begin with yourself, that is a lifetime of work, and surrender.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes, it is for a slect group. And it is the slect group that believes in Jesus Christ. This has nothing to do with my ego, but everything to do with Gods Word. It is not my view, it is the Bibles view.
Numpty
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:27 am
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;43627 wrote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes, it is for a slect group. And it is the slect group that believes in Jesus Christ. This has nothing to do with my ego, but everything to do with Gods Word. It is not my view, it is the Bibles view.


But God is his own son, right?

Did john Know this? If so do you have the passage where he acknowledges this 'fact'?
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:55 am
@Numpty,
Numpty;43631 wrote:
But God is his own son, right?

Did john Know this? If so do you have the passage where he acknowledges this 'fact'?


God exist as 3 seperate persons that = One God. There are three that bear record in Heaven the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
0 Replies
 
Tulip cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 11:04 am
@Adam Bing,
Campbell, God sent avators to every culture, Buddah, Kristna, Jesus...

God didn't just pop down on the planet and create, disappear for a while, hiding, then send one lone avator to one lone area of the planet, to grace one lone culture...

and then sit back and hide to see us again on judgement day and then say,

"now what name do you have for me?" and if you answer "kristna"

he becomes suddenly a judgemental, paranoid, wrathful, mean, uncaring, villian who pushes a button and a trap door opens to hell. Interesting delusion that is unfortunatly a part of why many catholic churches are having to sell the millions of dollars worth of property that they have covetted. People now have a higher level of awareness and are recognizing the false picture that has been given of our loving perfect God.

That version of God is a human one, and in our {meaning mankind's}efforts to frame and define things it is a defense of sorts, where we can become somehow superior, which is of course our ego, not our true spirit. And the ego and this nonesense has NOTHING to do with God.

Our interior spirit is perfect, the world is perfect and God is perfect.

The picture you paint is not of God.

So even if you are born on the part of our world where the God is called Buddah, and you have tried to be good, then you get to come again and relive all the karma that wasn't resolved.

God is good and he has created perfection in our spirits, we just need to unwind the layers of crappola and find it, and when we do, and when we can get over our little rules, and frameworks, and self-centred positions on external things, then we can be a part of God's kingdom.

All the rules that make us feel safe and secure are illusions, because as it says in the bible, "everything is possible to those who believe." Luke something, so if you believe it it will become your illusion, but this thought that one group is better than the other is a delussion and not of God.
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 05:53 pm
@Tulip cv,
Tulip;43644 wrote:
Campbell, God sent avators to every culture, Buddah, Kristna, Jesus...

God didn't just pop down on the planet and create, disappear for a while, hiding, then send one lone avator to one lone area of the planet, to grace one lone culture...

and then sit back and hide to see us again on judgement day and then say,

"now what name do you have for me?" and if you answer "kristna"

he becomes suddenly a judgemental, paranoid, wrathful, mean, uncaring, villian who pushes a button and a trap door opens to hell. Interesting delusion that is unfortunatly a part of why many catholic churches are having to sell the millions of dollars worth of property that they have covetted. People now have a higher level of awareness and are recognizing the false picture that has been given of our loving perfect God.

That version of God is a human one, and in our {meaning mankind's}efforts to frame and define things it is a defense of sorts, where we can become somehow superior, which is of course our ego, not our true spirit. And the ego and this nonesense has NOTHING to do with God.

Our interior spirit is perfect, the world is perfect and God is perfect.

The picture you paint is not of God.

So even if you are born on the part of our world where the God is called Buddah, and you have tried to be good, then you get to come again and relive all the karma that wasn't resolved.

God is good and he has created perfection in our spirits, we just need to unwind the layers of crappola and find it, and when we do, and when we can get over our little rules, and frameworks, and self-centred positions on external things, then we can be a part of God's kingdom.

All the rules that make us feel safe and secure are illusions, because as it says in the bible, "everything is possible to those who believe." Luke something, so if you believe it it will become your illusion, but this thought that one group is better than the other is a delussion and not of God.


The God of the Bible proves who He is by the prophecies of the Bible. None of the other religions have this kind of proof. And the Bible tells us that no one comes to the Father, until they first come to Jesus Christ. God is not a liar, and Gods prophecies donot lie. And when the Bible tells us we first must come to Christ, that is the truth. Don't blame God for a church that left God behind. The picture I paint is of a God of truth and judgment who has warned His creation. And this is obvious because it was God who told us that in the last days the Jews would return to Israel, and this would anger many nations . And the last battle on earth will be for the control of Jerusalem. You will not see this kind of revelation or truth in any other religion, because only God knows the future, and the true God has revealed it in His only published Book, the Bible.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 06:05 pm
@Adam Bing,
Work....you gotta work. Talk is cheap.
0 Replies
 
Adam Bing
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 09:03 pm
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;43708 wrote:
The God of the Bible proves who He is by the prophecies of the Bible. None of the other religions have this kind of proof. And the Bible tells us that no one comes to the Father, until they first come to Jesus Christ. God is not a liar, and Gods prophecies donot lie. And when the Bible tells us we first must come to Christ, that is the truth. Don't blame God for a church that left God behind. The picture I paint is of a God of truth and judgment who has warned His creation. And this is obvious because it was God who told us that in the last days the Jews would return to Israel, and this would anger many nations . And the last battle on earth will be for the control of Jerusalem. You will not see this kind of revelation or truth in any other religion, because only God knows the future, and the true God has revealed it in His only published Book, the Bible.


None of the other religions have this kind of proof ? You have obviously read the Koran, the Vedas, The Bhagwad Gita, The Ramayana, The Guru Granth Sahib, The Zorastarian texts, The Aborigine Beliefs from Australia and the prophecies they contain, the American Indian belief sets and the prophecies they contain, The Inuit belief sets and the prophecies they contain, the Buddhist karmic beliefs which are a prophecy in themeselves as they tell about your karmic future.

You Sir, are in extreme danger of epitomizing ingorance & bigotry through your persona if you do not expand your horizons or atleast refrain from voicing a hurtful arbitrary judgement on other people's cultures.
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 09:51 pm
@Adam Bing,
Adam Bing;43731 wrote:
None of the other religions have this kind of proof ? You have obviously read the Koran, the Vedas, The Bhagwad Gita, The Ramayana, The Guru Granth Sahib, The Zorastarian texts, The Aborigine Beliefs from Australia and the prophecies they contain, the American Indian belief sets and the prophecies they contain, The Inuit belief sets and the prophecies they contain, the Buddhist karmic beliefs which are a prophecy in themeselves as they tell about your karmic future.

You Sir, are in extreme danger of epitomizing ingorance & bigotry through your persona if you do not expand your horizons or atleast refrain from voicing a hurtful arbitrary judgement on other people's cultures.


Mr. Bing, the Bible has prophecy which are coming to pass in the day we live. These prophecies will involve the last great battle on earth, and plainly tell us the battle will decide who controls Jerusalem. At the end of these prophecies the Bible tells us all of Gods creation will see the Living God. If any of these other religions have such prophecy please show us. I will expand my horizons if you can demonstrate the truth of these other religions and their prophecies. The Bible has spoken the truth, now it is time for you to show us the truth of these other religions. Do these other religions tells us the details of what is going to happen in the world today as the Bible does? If they don't, then it is not I, who is the ignorant one here.
Adam Bing
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 10:03 pm
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;43743 wrote:
Mr. Bing, the Bible has prophecy which are coming to pass in the day we live. These prophecies will involve the last great battle on earth, and plainly tell us the battle will decide who controls Jerusalem. At the end of these prophecies the Bible tells us all of Gods creation will see the Living God. If any of these other religions have such prophecy please show us. I will expand my horizons if you can demonstrate the truth of these other religions and their prophecies. The Bible has spoken the truth, now it is time for you to show us the truth of these other religions. Do these other religions tells us the details of what is going to happen in the world today as the Bible does? If they don't, then it is not I, who is the ignorant one here.


Mr.Campbell, I am not saying this to be rude. But your position is appalling. You said somewhere that you are 57 years old. Is this what you have learnt in 57 Years. Total ignorance of and disdain for other cultures?

If you are the end product of Christianity, you make my point for me in front of the audience better than I can ever make it for myself.

In parting, I cannot prove to you the truths of other religious beliefs because I am not a believer. However, that has not stopped me from learning about them and respecting them and enjoying them when they do not proselytise as you do.

I however can attempt to make scientific points to refute your incredible position on scientific matters.
Curmudgeon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 10:04 pm
@Campbell34,
Quote:
Now tell me, are you willing to be baptized and to consider Jesus as your personal lord and saviour?

i was baptized and do consider Jesus to be my personal Lord ans Saviour, why do some groups insist that I must be "born again" to get into heaven?
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 12:58 am
@Adam Bing,
Adam Bing;43746 wrote:
Mr.Campbell, I am not saying this to be rude. But your position is appalling. You said somewhere that you are 57 years old. Is this what you have learnt in 57 Years. Total ignorance of and disdain for other cultures?

If you are the end product of Christianity, you make my point for me in front of the audience better than I can ever make it for myself.

In parting, I cannot prove to you the truths of other religious beliefs because I am not a believer. However, that has not stopped me from learning about them and respecting them and enjoying them when they do not proselytise as you do.

I however can attempt to make scientific points to refute your incredible position on scientific matters.


The truth is not always politically correct. And it would be a lie to say I have disdain for other cultures. You have stated that there are other religions that have prophecies which you used to defend your position. I have told you the Bible is the only Book in which the prophecies can be seen as true. I have given you a chance to show that I was wrong. Now you say you are not a believe in those other faiths so you can't show me those prophecies. If that is the case, perhaps in the future you should not use them as a defense for your position. Especially when it appears you know nothing of their prophecies.
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 01:02 am
@Curmudgeon,
Curmudgeon;43747 wrote:
i was baptized and do consider Jesus to be my personal Lord ans Saviour, why do some groups insist that I must be "born again" to get into heaven?


Well Jesus Christ made the statement. Unless a man is born again he will not see the Kingdom of God. All that means is you in prayer just tell Christ that you are a sinner and ask Him to forgive you of those sins and ask Him to be the Lord of your life. Thats it. If you love God and follow after Him He will take care of the rest.
Adam Bing
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 01:34 am
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;43760 wrote:
The truth is not always politically correct. And it would be a lie to say I have disdain for other cultures. You have stated that there are other religions that have prophecies which you used to defend your position. I have told you the Bible is the only Book in which the prophecies can be seen as true. I have given you a chance to show that I was wrong. Now you say you are not a believe in those other faiths so you can't show me those prophecies. If that is the case, perhaps in the future you should not use them as a defense for your position. Especially when it appears you know nothing of their prophecies.


I know of their prophecies as I know of yours. From their adherents. Each of these adherents shows the kind of certainity that you do. There is nothing in your mental makeup that makes you unique from them.

Similarly and this is important so try and focus and not get distracted by the demons, there is nothing in the Bible that makes it any greater than the other books I refer to. How do I know? because I have read large tracts from the Bible, The Koran, The Bhagwad Gita, The Ramayana. In addition, I have heard of their propehecies from the Aborigines, the native Americans and have spent a month in a Buddhist monastry in Thailand amongst a lovely non-proselytising people. Each of their beliefs, is as beautiful as the thoughts in the Bible. There is nothing more special about the Bible. There is however something inferior in the Bible which is not there in the Buddhist theologies. And that is this whole unfortunate nonsense about being good is not good enough.

Still with me? Ok. So, the reason I cannot defend these theologies is because I do not believe in them. However, I can defend the scientific thinking that lies behind Evolution, the time lines behind the extinction of the dinasours and other such areas of your evident expertise.
Campbell34
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 02:11 am
@Adam Bing,
Adam Bing;43764 wrote:
I know of their prophecies as I know of yours. From their adherents. Each of these adherents shows the kind of certainity that you do. There is nothing in your mental makeup that makes you unique from them.

Similarly and this is important so try and focus and not get distracted by the demons, there is nothing in the Bible that makes it any greater than the other books I refer to. How do I know? because I have read large tracts from the Bible, The Koran, The Bhagwad Gita, The Ramayana. In addition, I have heard of their propehecies from the Aborigines, the native Americans and have spent a month in a Buddhist monastry in Thailand amongst a lovely non-proselytising people. Each of their beliefs, is as beautiful as the thoughts in the Bible. There is nothing more special about the Bible. There is however something inferior in the Bible which is not there in the Buddhist theologies. And that is this whole unfortunate nonsense about being good is not good enough.

Still with me? Ok. So, the reason I cannot defend these theologies is because I do not believe in them. However, I can defend the scientific thinking that lies behind Evolution, the time lines behind the extinction of the dinasours and other such areas of your evident expertise.


It is not my mental make up that is in question here, it is the prophecies of the Bible. And I can tell you none of the other religions prophecies have much to say when it comes to what is happening in todays world. Only the Bible speaks directly to what is going on. Now that may no be politically correct to say, yet it is the truth. And if you want to tell me how much you have studied the other religions that's fine, but it's obvious to me you have not retained much. Because if you had, you would of been able to tell me of their prophecies even if you don't believe in them. The Bible prophecies are true and it is equally true when the Bible states that by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Adam Bing
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:24 am
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;43768 wrote:
It is not my mental make up that is in question here, it is the prophecies of the Bible. And I can tell you none of the other religions prophecies have much to say when it comes to what is happening in todays world. Only the Bible speaks directly to what is going on. Now that may no be politically correct to say, yet it is the truth. And if you want to tell me how much you have studied the other religions that's fine, but it's obvious to me you have not retained much. Because if you had, you would of been able to tell me of their prophecies even if you don't believe in them. The Bible prophecies are true and it is equally true when the Bible states that by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.


I am a student of history Mr.Cambell and study religions from a historical prespective. I do not believe in prophecies and treat them all as amusing ninsense including those claimed by you.

As such, one doesn;t retain nonsense. Now, my argument is not that "their prophecies are better than yours" which is what you are used to and so maybe you are confused in discussing the matter with me.

Let me say again, ALL PROPHECIES IRRESPECTIVE OF THE RELIGION ARE NONSENSE. I was only making a point that yours is as much of nonsense as theirs and by claiming to be better than theirs you were unnecessarily hurting other cultures. Keep those beliefs to yourself.

With me the argument is between your belief in a Certainty against mine in the process of Scientific Investigation.
0 Replies
 
Numpty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 05:18 pm
@Campbell34,
Campbell34;43761 wrote:
Well Jesus Christ made the statement. Unless a man is born again he will not see the Kingdom of God. All that means is you in prayer just tell Christ that you are a sinner and ask Him to forgive you of those sins and ask Him to be the Lord of your life. Thats it. If you love God and follow after Him He will take care of the rest.



Soooooo, on that bombshell essentially a person commits a murder, and after serving time in the clink realises what they have done is the most heanus thing that has ever happend, they can't sleep with guilt, they truely are lost.They learn about christ, his teachings and understand them to be true. he loves God and follows him without question. He then decides to become baptised and be 'born again' asking for jesus/ God to forgive his sins. According to you if the man is genuine he will be forgiven and welcomed into the kingdom of heaven.

I can buy into that.

There is also another man he is a christian, follows christ to the letter, much like yourself, understands what it is to be christian how to live ones life, goes to church helps at all the local charities. However he is only human and has a complete lapse, takes something from one of the charity places, its not much a trinket worth 10c that he thinks his daughter would like, she is doing a school project it may help with, but he still stole it. On the way home he goes into a store which is being held up by a robber, the robber is startled and swings around to shoot. Another man sees this (he happens to be an athiest he has no religous faith and does not believe in any God) and lunges forward to stop the man from taking the shot, unfortunatly the christian man is gunned down and so is the athiest, both die in the shop and the robber flees and is caught later, prosecuted and sent to prison, he gets out after 30 years.

Incidently the murderer is the man from the first story.

So on this supposition The murderer gets to go to the kingdom of heaven because he truely realised the error of his ways and spent the rest of his life preaching the way of the lord and living by his teachins, truely repenting.
The other two men go to hell, firstly because although christian he committed a sin (stealing the trinket) not long before he died, unfortunately the death was sudden he had no opportunity to repent and he did not get to ask for forgiveness before his untimely death. This man goes to hell. Secondly the other man comitted the ultimate sacrifice and gave his life trying to save another mans life, however he goes to hell because he is an athiest and does not believe in God. This man goes to hell

A little long winded but I got there in the end.

Would you agree that the man who comitted the original muders is the only one who gets to go to heaven?

If so, do you agree this should be how it is?
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:33 pm
@Adam Bing,
Stop telling me you're a Christian. I want to see it for myself. SHOW ME. Prove it. Words are cheaper than dirt. Words alone in this case are worthless. I want to watch your Christianity in action.
0 Replies
 
 

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