The Roman Empire and the USA

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It is now being discovered that in the final days of Empire, Rome was actually the most powerful and organized it had ever been. It was not disunified, it was not in decline, it was not in a shortage of manpower or in a period of economic turmoil. And all its fall can be traced to the invasion of the Germans.

So my question is can there be any logical links made to the Roman Empire and to the United States?

Since Rome was theoretically going to continue indefinately...

Since Rome, made by the sword, was unmade by the sword...

What use are comparisons between the US and Rome since none of the comparisons accurately portray the reasons for the fall of Rome?

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@Roman Empire,

Roman Empire;25793 wrote:

It is now being discovered that in the final days of Empire, Rome was actually the most powerful and organized it had ever been. It was not disunified, it was not in decline, it was not in a shortage of manpower or in a period of economic turmoil. And all its fall can be traced to the invasion of the Germans.

So my question is can there be any logical links made to the Roman Empire and to the United States?

Since Rome was theoretically going to continue indefinately...

Since Rome, made by the sword, was unmade by the sword...

What use are comparisons between the US and Rome since none of the comparisons accurately portray the reasons for the fall of Rome?

im going back to my history books on this one :dunno: those germans again ! still causing wars back then :eek:

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@Roman Empire,

Quote:

What use are comparisons between the US and Rome since none of the comparisons accurately portray the reasons for the fall of Rome?

None of the reasons given in THAT reference, but how about a link to it, so we can read it and see if it is the definitive work on the fall of the Roman Empire?
Many have written the story, and IIRC, most of them disagree with that assessment.

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@Roman Empire,

Rome faded away do in large part to an inability to defend themselves.

While nobody knows for sure the most logical corse of events is that during the many assaults on Rome the aqueduct system was damaged. This would have led to the failure of the baths and sewers which kept Rome clean and in walks disease. Poor health coupled with the giant bullseye that is now on you and people pick up and leave.

the question is what happened? The answer is a troubling problem that is rearing it's head here now.

Rome became so luxurious, so wealthy that their citizens became fat, lazy, and generally gravitated to a sense of entitlement. Since everyone was entitled to be comfortable, and nobody thought it was their duty to serve the country or toil in labor. The very thing which made Rome great, it's might, left her.

All they had left was a bunch of entitled snivelers who were "me me me" and expected it be handed to them...

I'm sorry, were we talking about Rome?

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@Roman Empire,

Quote:

I'm sorry, were we talking about Rome?

So many parallels, we could easily be talking about western civilization, including America!

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@Roman Empire,

Lack of morality and decadence in general is also shared. Since Roman society lost its need to work hard for basic essential things and it's drive to build an empire once it had become so powerful, it became decadent. It could have survived if it kept it's army, but instead it resorted to barbarian mercenaries. Accepting Germanic barbarians led to the creation of a fifth column which assisted their fellows in the destruction of the Western Empire. There is no such parallel in America for these mercenaries, but there may be a fifth column within America itself, as there was in Rome. However, don't forget the aftermath. The barbarians became somewhat civilized and built a ghost of the Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, once all was said and done, and Rome was so great that it lasted in the East for another millenium. So, even if America as we know it is at its end, maybe it will not be completely wiped out.

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;25923 wrote:

Lack of morality and decadence in general is also shared.

come again? Rome was strongest in it's Pagan years, it fell after it turned away from it's "lack of morality". Not drawing any sociological lines just making a very accurate observation...

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@Roman Empire,

Well, what, are you trying to say paganism would have kept Rome alive? Do you know what Nero was doing while Rome was collapsing around him? Constantine wasn't one of the best Emperors in a long time? Rome was spiralling downward long before Christianity, it was the emperor who embraced Christianity who gave it a little more time and ensured a part of it would keep going after one part fell. And Christianity had nothing to do with barbarian invasions. I'm saying, once lack of morality set in, there was no desire to do anything productive in Rome. Didn't you say something along those lines?

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;25925 wrote:

come again? Rome was strongest in it's Pagan years, it fell after it turned away from it's "lack of morality". Not drawing any sociological lines just making a very accurate observation...

Thank you for that, I can't disagree with an honest man.

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@Roman Empire,

I can't find it (I'll keep looking and post it if I find it) but I read an economist's
look at civilizations in history and he found that success for a country leads to
behavior that is the opposite of what led to success.

Economics is the cold, rational study of incentives which produce behavior.

The basic hallmark that leads to decline in almost every instance is when
manufacturing/harvesting is centralized abroad instead of at home. That
puts the culture in question in a very vulnerable position for many reasons.

Also, the incentive for participating in a society is that the positives (protection
and security, cooperation in production and harvesting, etc.) outweigh the
negatives (fending for yourself, protecting yourself). As the participants
become successful that system begins to break down as they acquire the
means to fend for and protect themselves apart from the whole.

If you want a parallel in America it applies to both the right (no taxes, no
federal department of education, no social programs for those who need them,
let everyone make their own way and don't ask me to be a part of providing for them)
and the left (don't dictate my behavior or require me to participate in
defense or anything else).

The question is, at some point is a society needed? If everyone does become
successful and autonomous is the societal model that got them there
a drawback to personal liberty? Our own origins as a nation were the result of that...
the founding fathers specifically wanted no king or anything resembling a
government where the people could be overpowered by those in power.

So, did the Romans as individuals perish or did the Roman Empire as a
political state perish?

Some have suggested it just turned into the Catholic Church, and they're not
that far off, historically.

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;25929 wrote:

Well, what, are you trying to say paganism would have kept Rome alive? Do you know what Nero was doing while Rome was collapsing around him?

Rome was extremely strong during and after the Death of Nero. Constantine gets credit for saving the empire during his reign but all he did was prolong it really. If you want to point to any one thing as the "start of the decline" I would point to the fall of the Roman Republic.

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@Roman Empire,

Quote:

Some have suggested it just turned into the catholic Church, and they're not
that far off, historically.

Yeah. Okay.

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;26184 wrote:

Rome was extremely strong during and after the Death of Nero. Constantine gets credit for saving the empire during his reign but all he did was prolong it really. If you want to point to any one thing as the "start of the decline" I would point to the fall of the Roman Republic.

That's what i said. He prolonged it for quite a long time though, you have to give him a lot of credit for that. I would expect you to say that, but many of the Emperors weren't really that bad for Rome. It wasn't the start of the decline, just the start of more widespread corruption and such things. Anyway, that's an oversimplistic approach, there are likely too many factors in the decline of the Empire to list. I was merely pointing out a prominent similarity.

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@Roman Empire,

Reagaknight, would you agree with the "power=corruption" thing?

In any form of government in any society in history at some point
corruption overwhelms the positive results, and the institution is
challenged. Organized religions follow the same arc.

Could it be as many Enlightenment philosophers thought, that eventually
no man should have power over another, and all should have power
over themselves? Maybe, eventually, that what it will get to, as it was
in the very beginning.

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@Roman Empire,

And then again, maybe not.

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@Roman Empire,

Quote:

In any form of government in any society in history at some point
corruption overwhelms the positive results, and the institution is
challenged. Organized religions follow the same arc.

Could it be as many Enlightenment philosophers thought, that eventually
no man should have power over another, and all should have power
over themselves? Maybe, eventually, that what it will get to, as it was
in the very beginning.

The first Popes were good. The middle ones were a mix. The modern ones mainly go back to being good. The papacy and the Catholic church are generally good things for society.

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@Roman Empire,

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@Roman Empire,

Constantine was pagan. Did not turn Christian untill becoming Emperor

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@Roman Empire,

I think it is Karma. Any nation that dares to impose its will on another, will sooner or later be met in like kind. It is the cosmic balance in action.

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@Roman Empire,

Quote:

Constantine was pagan. Did not turn Christian untill becoming Emperor

Actually, he was baptized on his death bed, so was not officially a Christian until just before he died....:spot:

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