@mako cv,
Quote:So you think the Christians are conspiring this whole thing, got any evidence other then opinion?
The entire history of Christianity is a conspiracy of lying for god. Here are a choice quotes of past Christian leaders to set the stage:
"I will only mention the Apostle Paul. ... He, then, if anyone, ought to be calumniated; we should speak thus to him:
?The proofs which you have used against the Jews and against other heretics bear a different meaning in their own contexts to that which they bear in your Epistles.
We see passages taken captive by your pen and pressed into service to win you a victory, which in volumes from which they are taken have no controversial bearing at all ... the line so often adopted by strong men in controversy ? of justifying the means by the result." (St. Jerome, Epistle to Pammachus, xlviii, 13;
"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."
(Bishop Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol 12, Chapter 32 ? titled Evangelical Preparation ? 4th century)
"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity." (Bishop Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2).
"Do you see the advantage of deceit? ...
For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...
And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived." (John Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1 ? 5th century).
"Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since ? as already it has been often proved ? these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them." (Bishop Faustus, 5th and 6th century, opponent to St Augustine, an avowed ?Liar for God?)
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." (Ignatius Loyola ? 15th century founder of the Jesuits)
"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them." (Martin Luther as cited by his secretary in a letter)
Then we have the forgeries of the Christians?can you see the pattern?
The Donation of Constantine - A two-part document purporting to be from the first Christian emperor to Pope Sylvester I (314-35). In the 'Confessio' Constantine thanks Sylvester for his Christian instruction and baptism (and consequent cure of leprosy!) In his 'Donatio' Constantine confers on the pope and his successors primacy over all other bishops, including the eastern patriarchs, senatorial privileges for the clergy, imperial palaces and regalia, Rome itself and the western empire!!
The False Decretals ? A riot of more than a hundred fake letters and decrees attributed to pontiffs from first century Clement (88-97) to seventh century Gregory I (590-604). Now attributed to 'Isodore Mercator', a ninth century master forger, almost certainly a papal aide
'Thundering Legion' Decree of Marcus Aurelius ? In this fabricated letter from the emperor to the Senate, Marcus is said to have forbidden persecution of Christians because, in a battle with the Quadi in 174, prayers from Christian soldiers brought on a thunderstorm which rescued the Romans from thirst and dispersed the barbarian opponents.
'Letters' of Emperor Antoninus Pius to the Greeks ? More fakery, this time from the pen of fourth century Bishop Eusebius (Ecclesiastic History, IV, 13). He has the pious second century pagan forbid 'tumults against the Christians.'
The Clementines ? These fancies, twenty books of 'curious religious romance' (Catholic Encyclopedia), masquerade as the work of first century pontiff Clement I. Written in the fourth century, their purpose was to bolster Rome's claim to be the primary see: here we have the 'Epistle of Clement to James' which originated the notion that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome.
Correspondence between Seneca and Paul - a fourth century invention of first century letters. They alluded to fires in Rome and to the persecution of Jews and Christians.
'Testimonium Flavianum' - The infamous 'passing reference' to Jesus Christ supposedly written by the first century Jewish historian Josephus (he adopted the family name of the imperial house).
The Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus - a 5th century disciple of Bishop Martin of Tours invented the lurid story of the Neronian persecution.
The Lentulus Letter For this pious fancy the forger created a fictitious predecessor to Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, calling him "Publius Lentulus". The forger has his creation write to the Roman Senate, reporting Christ's "raising of the dead".
Report of Pilate to Caesar ? Pilate's conversion to Christianity ? and even the debauched Emperor Tiberius a closet-Christian! Another gem from the pen of Tertullian!
Letter of Jesus to the King of Edessa
Nothing less than the handwritten note of the godman himself! This fabrication was supposedly delivered by the apostle Thaddeus, together with a self-portrait by the artist
This continues into the modern era:
The Pope has chosen to canonise Juan Diego, supposedly a sixteenth century Mexican Indian who had the good fortune to have the Blessed Virgin (in the guise of 'Our Lady of Guadeloupe') impress her own image onto his cloak. Not surprisingly, Diego was a paragon of Catholic devotion, completely submissive to Spanish colonial authorities. Mind you, the story only surfaced a century after its alleged occurrence, at the height of the campaign to eradicate indigenous religions.
Commented David Brading, Professor of Mexican History at Cambridge University:
'When the Pope canonises Juan Diego, he will have elevated to sainthood the hero of a religious work of fiction.'
(The Times, 31 June 2002)
Looks like Christianity is hung by its own lying petard?with a history such as this, why should their unverified (and evidentially unverifiable) word be taken as fact? :patriot:
