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Since the other waterboarding thread got locked...

 
 
92b16vx
 
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 10:36 pm
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,593 • Replies: 75
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92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 10:36 pm
@92b16vx,
...Continued


Call it “Chinese Water Torture,” “the Barrel,” or “the Waterfall,” it is all the same. Whether the victim is allowed to comply or not is usually left up to the interrogator. Many waterboard team members, even in training, enjoy the sadistic power of making the victim suffer and often ask questions as an after thought. These people are dangerous and predictable and when left unshackled, unsupervised or undetected they bring us the murderous abuses seen at Abu Ghraieb, Baghram and Guantanamo. No doubt, to avoid human factors like fear and guilt someone has created a one-button version that probably looks like an MRI machine with high intensity waterjets.

3. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives. The Small Wars Council had a spirited discussion about this earlier in the year, especially when former Marine Generals Krulak and Hoar rejected all arguments for torture.

Evan Wallach wrote a brilliant history of the use of waterboarding as a war crime and the open acceptance of it by the administration in an article for Columbia Journal for Transnational Law. In it he describes how the ideological Justice Department lawyer, John Yoo validated the current dilemma we find ourselves in by asserting that the President had powers above and beyond the Constitution and the Congress:

“Congress doesn’t have the power to tie the President’s hands in regard to torture as an interrogation technique....It’s the core of the Commander-in-Chief function. They can’t prevent the President from ordering torture.”

That is an astounding assertion. It reflects a basic disregard for the law of the United States, the Constitution and basic moral decency.

Another MSNBC commentator defended the administration and stated that waterboarding is "not a new phenomenon" and that it had "been pinned on President Bush … but this has been part of interrogation for years and years and years." He is correct, but only partially. The Washington Post reported in 2006 that it was mainly America’s enemies that used it as a principal interrogation method. After World War 2, Japanese waterboard team members were tried for war crimes. In Vietnam, service members were placed under investigation when a photo of a field-expedient waterboarding became publicly known.

Torture in captivity simulation training reveals there are ways an enemy can inflict punishment which will render the subject wholly helpless and which will generally overcome his willpower. The torturer will trigger within the subject a survival instinct, in this case the ability to breathe, which makes the victim instantly pliable and ready to comply. It is purely and simply a tool by which to deprive a human being of his ability to resist through physical humiliation. The very concept of an American Torturer is an anathema to our values.

I concur strongly with the opinions of professional interrogators like Colonel Stewart Herrington, and victims of torture like Senator John McCain. If you want consistent, accurate and reliable intelligence, be inquisitive, analytical, patient but most of all professional, amiable and compassionate.

Who will complain about the new world-wide embrace of torture? America has justified it legally at the highest levels of government. Even worse, the administration has selectively leaked supposed successes of the water board such as the alleged Khalid Sheik Mohammed confessions. However, in the same breath the CIA sources for the Washington Post noted that in Mohammed’s case they got information but "not all of it reliable." Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic answers you want -because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work.

According to the President, this is not a torture, so future torturers in other countries now have an American legal basis to perform the acts. Every hostile intelligence agency and terrorist in the world will consider it a viable tool, which can be used with impunity. It has been turned into perfectly acceptable behavior for information finding.

A torture victim can be made to say anything by an evil nation that does not abide by humanity, morality, treaties or rule of law. Today we are on the verge of becoming that nation. Is it possible that September 11 hurt us so much that we have decided to gladly adopt the tools of KGB, the Khmer Rouge, the Nazi Gestapo, the North Vietnamese, the North Koreans and the Burmese Junta?

What next if the waterboarding on a critical the captive doesn’t work and you have a timetable to stop the “ticking bomb” scenario? Electric shock to the genitals? Taking a pregnant woman and electrocuting the fetus inside her? Executing a captive’s children in front of him? Dropping live people from an airplane over the ocean? It has all been done by governments seeking information. All claimed the same need to stop the ticking bomb. It is not a far leap from torture to murder, especially if the subject is defiant. Are we willing to trade our nation’s soul for tactical intelligence?

Is There a Place for the Waterboard?

Yes. The waterboard must go back to the realm of SERE training our operators, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. We must now double our efforts to prepare for its inevitable and uncontrolled use of by our future enemies.

Until recently, only a few countries considered it effective. Now American use of the waterboard as an interrogation tool has assuredly guaranteed that our service members and agents who are captured or detained by future enemies will be subject to it as part of the most routine interrogations. Forget threats, poor food, the occasional face slap and sexual assaults. This was not a dignified ‘taking off the gloves’; this was descending to the level of our opposition in an equally brutish and ugly way. Waterboarding will be one our future enemy’s go-to techniques because we took the gloves off to brutal interrogation. Now our enemies will take the gloves off and thank us for it.

There may never again be a chance that Americans will benefit from the shield of outrage and public opinion when our future enemy uses of torture. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of American citizens, agents and members of the armed forces may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora’s box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name of protecting America. To defeat Bin Laden many in this administration have openly embraced the methods of by Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Galtieri and Saddam Hussein.

Not A Fair Trade for America’s Honor

I have stated publicly and repeatedly that I would personally cut Bin Laden’s heart out with a plastic MRE spoon if we per chance meet on the battlefield. Yet, once captive I believe that the better angels of our nature and our nation’s core values would eventually convince any terrorist that they indeed have erred in their murderous ways. Once convicted in a fair, public tribunal, they would have the rest of their lives, however short the law makes it, to come to terms with their God and their acts.

This is not enough for our President. He apparently secretly ordered the core American values of fairness and justice to be thrown away in the name of security from terrorists. He somehow determined that the honor the military, the CIA and the nation itself was an acceptable trade for the superficial knowledge of the machinations of approximately 2,000 terrorists, most of whom are being decimated in Iraq or martyring themselves in Afghanistan. It is a short sighted and politically motivated trade that is simply disgraceful. There is no honor here.

It is outrageous that American officials, including the Attorney General and a legion of minions of lower rank have not only embraced this torture but have actually justified it, redefined it to a misdemeanor, brought it down to the level of a college prank and then bragged about it. The echo chamber that is the American media now views torture as a heroic and macho.

Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet, convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured. In essence, our own missteps have created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda’s own virtual SERE school for terrorists.

Congressional leaders from both sides of the aisle need to stand up for American values and clearly specify that coercive interrogation using the waterboard is torture and, except for limited examples of training our service members and intelligence officers, it should be stopped completely and finally –oh, and this time without a Presidential signing statement reinterpreting the law.
__________________
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 11:12 pm
@92b16vx,
good job, it's a real thread!
hatukazi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 12:15 am
@Silverchild79,
HOLY SH*T!, when I put a thread on waterboarding I guess I really didn't know what it is like, I saw a skit on the Daily Show and thought if I put it in a humorous light it wouldn't just be construed as "bush hating".
reading the description of the technique and it's effects I actually felt sick, and that was just from reading about it.

It is TORTURE and NOBODY should be subject to that type of abuse.

I apologize for taking this issue way too lightly.
0 Replies
 
klyph
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 02:47 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;45240 wrote:
good job, it's a real thread!


I'm curious about your opinions on the United States' use of this technique and whether you feel it to be justified in certain situations.
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 07:11 pm
@92b16vx,
Fight Terrorist Islam to the bitter end. Fight it. Smash it. Smash it to bits.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 07:42 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;45421 wrote:
Fight Terrorist Islam to the bitter end. Fight it. Smash it. Smash it to bits.


Are you condoning torture?
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 08:03 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;45433 wrote:
Are you condoning torture?


Torturing Al Qaeda is like wiping your butt. It's a nasty job, but it's gotta be done.:devilheadbang:
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 08:15 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;45442 wrote:
Torturing Al Qaeda is like wiping your butt. It's a nasty job, but it's gotta be done.:devilheadbang:


so "guilty untill proven innocen"t isn't a value you go by then huh? Or perhaps you think we should use cruel and unusual punishment?

It scares me that you are a teacher, i feel sorry for those kids :disgust:
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 08:25 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;45450 wrote:
so "guilty untill proven innocen"t isn't a value you go by then huh? Or perhaps you think we should use cruel and unusual punishment?

It scares me that you are a teacher, i feel sorry for those kids :disgust:


Pino doesn't believe in rights, the Constitution, or America, just the longevity of his "everyone is out to get us" christian reich.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 08:32 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;45450 wrote:
so "guilty untill proven innocen"t isn't a value you go by then huh? Or perhaps you think we should use cruel and unusual punishment?

It scares me that you are a teacher, i feel sorry for those kids :disgust:


Yeah....and I teach nuclear physics and chemistry, too.:backtotopic:

Yeah....you'd better be scared of me. I would have failed you in the ninth grade. Your English and World Geography need massive improvement. Report to my classroom at 0730 for tutoring, for the rest of the semester.:rollinglaugh:
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 08:33 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;45459 wrote:
Pino doesn't believe in rights, the Constitution, or America, just the longevity of his "everyone is out to get us" christian reich.


There I was, minding my own business, when 911..................:AR15firing:
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Nov, 2007 09:03 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;45462 wrote:
Yeah....and I teach nuclear physics and chemistry, too.:backtotopic:

Yeah....you'd better be scared of me. I would have failed you in the ninth grade. Your English and World Geography need massive improvement. Report to my classroom at 0730 for tutoring, for the rest of the semester.:rollinglaugh:


from your previous posts, i think i need to teach [SIZE="3"]YOU![/SIZE]
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 03:51 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Here's an idea:

John McCain, one of the few Vietnam vets in Congress, and somebody who was actually tortured has denounced waterboarding as torture. It seems to me that a man who has suffered such injustices is in a better position to determine whether or not an action is or is not torture than academic idiots at the DoJ.

Or better yet:

ANY physical contact with a prisoner outside of restraint and transportation is illegal. Innocent until proven otherwise is my motto, and I don't think innocent people need to be touched at all if they don't want to be.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 04:51 pm
@Freeman15,
waterboarding is the most innocent name you can give it, it sounds like surfing, if we called it "Chinese water torture" what it truly is i think more people would be opposed to it!

it sounds to me the republicans want to change the definition of what they're doing so it won't be considered torture....
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 06:39 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;45471 wrote:
from your previous posts, i think i need to teach [SIZE="3"]YOU![/SIZE]


Yeah....I should feel so bad as a teacher for believing that AQ needs to be wiped out, Iran denied nukes, and America safeguarded against terrorism. I feel so, so bad for believing in such 'scary' things. Pound sand.:FU1:
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 06:55 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;45561 wrote:
Yeah....I should feel so bad as a teacher for believing that AQ needs to be wiped out, Iran denied nukes, and America safeguarded against terrorism. I feel so, so bad for believing in such 'scary' things. Pound sand.:FU1:


[SIZE="3"]You try to put a positive spin on your beliefs to make them sound more noble than they actually are![/SIZE]

Al Qaeda does need to be wiped out, but torture is a violation of human rights and doesn't acomplish this goal

Iran did deny having nukes, and there is no evidence whatsoever that iran has nukes, yet America threatens Iran(former ally) for supposedly trying to aquire nukes when oppenly hostile nations HAVE nukes and America does nothing about them!

America TRIED to safeguard against terrorism but had the reverse affect, effectivly creating more of a threat than there was before!
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 07:15 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
"You try to put a positive spin on your beliefs to make them sound more noble than they actually are!"

Prove it.

"......but torture is a violation of human rights and doesn't acomplish this goal."

I fixed your bad punctuation, btw. And crap -- waterboarding AQ has saved lives. FACT. AQ deserves no humane consideration at all. They're animals who must be exterminated, one and all.

"Iran did deny having nukes, and there is no evidence whatsoever that iran has nukes, yet America threatens Iran(former ally) for supposedly trying to aquire nukes when oppenly hostile nations HAVE nukes and America does nothing about them!"

Twisted, self-destructive logic. Iran is an insane state and will set the world ablaze if it acquires nukes. People with your judgment will lead us directly into WWIII. You're a spitting image of Neville Chamberlain.

"America TRIED to safeguard against terrorism but had the reverse affect, effectivly creating more of a threat than there was before!"

The bottom line is that you hate America. You need to hate to give your life meaning. Actually, in a weird way, you love the objects of your hatred, because without them, life would be utterly unbearable. You love hating the people and ideas you hate. For hatred's sake, you love them.:rocketwhore:
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 07:29 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;45576 AQ deserves no humane consideration at all. They're [I wrote:
animals[/I] who must be exterminated, one and all.

INNOCENT UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY! If a Detainee is proven to be an Al Qaeda member, we shall let the punishment be decided by the courts, if you torture someone before the court has made it's ruling there is a great chance you will be torturing innocent people! :FU2:

Twisted, self-destructive logic. Iran is an insane state and will set the world ablaze if it acquires nukes. People with your judgment will lead us directly into WWIII. You're a spitting image of Neville Chamberlain.

NEWSFLASH: Only one country has ever used nukes on an enemy! The leader of Iran is insane, not the whole country! and if anybody will lead us to WW3 it will be the War Mongers like yourself!


The bottom line is that you hate America. You need to hate to give your life meaning. Actually, in a weird way, you love the objects of your hatred, because without them, life would be utterly unbearable. You love hating the people and ideas you hate. For hatred's sake, you love them.:rocketwhore:

You and so many other neo-cons accuse people of hating America because we have differing oppinions! GET A LIFE! You remind me of McCarthy!



replies bolded
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 08:51 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;45581 wrote:
replies bolded


No kidding.:bangin:
 

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