Affirmative Actions days are numbered

Disrimination is just that, no matter how you justify it.

So, affirmative action is discrimination? Please tell me how, especially if it is applied to all races based solely on economic need?

In that case it isn't affirmative action... it's just aide period

So, affirmative action is discrimination? Please tell me how, especially if it is applied to all races based solely on economic need?

At the time it was put into action affirmative action programs were needed.

That was 30+ years ago, and they definitely should be evaluated to see if they work, are still needed or are serving the general interests of the nation.

People hire or admit people they're comfortable with, and people are comfortable with people like themselves, and that causes a lack of diversity in most cases.

The obvious answer is to just let computers blindly pick the best qualified and highest scoring candidates for anything,

So, are you as qualified for whatever you do as someone who went to an Ivy League school?

So, affirmative action is discrimination? Please tell me how, especially if it is applied to all races based solely on economic need?

People hire or admit people they're comfortable with, and people are comfortable with people like themselves, and that causes a lack of diversity in most cases.

So, are you as qualified for whatever you do as someone who went to an Ivy League school?

The most qualified people aren't always the ones hired in the first place. Hardly. The ones who know somebody will get it over them. Or the ones who are more physically attractive. Or the ones who don't intimidate the one doing the hiring who's insecure about their position. Or the one who has a more charming personality. Raises, promotions, etc. all work the exact
same way. If you have any real life experience you know this. It's reality.

When Uncle Sam is writing the paycheck, yes! the government is the servant of the people, and as such should reflect the make-up of society.
11% african-american and 11% hispanic, if qualified applicants are available.

Okay, but would a blind computer selecting applications think an Architech
from Yale would have a better grasp of that stuff than you? Probably...

and that's the point. "Better qualified" is subjective. So there is no arguement against affirmative action based on that.

Okay, will the "smartest" applicant necessarily be the bravest or have the
quickest reflexes?

If you can do the job well isn't that good enough.

Do
you need an Ivy League diploma to be hard-working and dedicated?

Isn't it a lot like your statement about an architech framing a house?

Here's a good, short, factual account of Affirmative Action in America that
doesn't take a side, just presents the information from a legal point of view.

Affirmative Action History

I've got the same link. I like the part about it being temporary.

I know that but were you discriminated against?

Quote:

No, I've never been discriminated against, that I know of...

I am also a Louisiana Creole, as much native american, spanish and black
as french caucasion. I think legally, if someone used the old laws that
are still on the books here, I could be classified as "black," because after
the civil war that's what creoles were assigned to be, even though for
all intents and purposes we're our own race in a lot of ways, specifically
culturally (a european-based Louisiana culture that's pretty unique) and have
been that way longer than the U.S. has existed. We built this state, when
there was no one else around, then the U.S. purchased the territory from
France and slowly pushed us down the social ladder... or at least the
creoles who weren't so wealthy that they couldn't be pushed down (basically,
the old money types in New Orleans, now).

I've never used that to "get ahead" as far as a quota system, because I
had a pretty priviledged upbringing, and I don't need the help.

Then again, I get to choose, based on my appearance, whether I care to be
a minority or not. That's a big difference from someone who doesn't look
"white" like I do.

Drnaline;7699 wrote:

Uncle same isn't writing the paycheck in most situations. What if there is now qualified applicant, should they hire a person who is not qualified just to meet your 11%, because that is what's happening.

No, it isn't. Show me a documented case. It's only government sector, and
educational institutions, who get assistance from the government, and have
to meet those standards as a condition.

Drnaline;7699 wrote:

The blind computer will think what the programmer taught it to think. If race is asked for it consideration, it will be considered. Maybe even awarded extra points based on that info. If you applied for a job, site unseen and on that app you put that you were black, your qualifications being the same. Do you think you'd have a better chance of getting that job?

No, I don't. I work around this everyday.

Are you saying that programmers are inclined to be prejudiced a bit one
way or the other? They are human.

Yes, you get extra points on a civil service grade for being a minority,
and a woman, and a veteran, and handicapped, and having a college degree, and having so much experience.

Drnaline;7699 wrote:

Nope, i'm a good example of that.

Then you should understand.

Drnaline;7699 wrote:

Yes it is almost exactly like my statement. The difference is, i didn't, nor have i ever used Affirmative Action to get any job i have ever had. I received it by my merit. Nothing else. I've owned and sold business's that were built on dedication and hard work. I don't need the government for anything. That is the reality in this world, get of your ass and earn what you want.

Neither have I. I got a degree, and that and the work I do has done the rest. I got selected for the program i attended based on my grades and the
work I submitted, blind. I have a brain, I have a certain amount of social
charm handed down from my parents and that has allowed me to navigate
through life pretty well. I read a lot of sociology and philosophy and there's
a guy named Pierre Bourdieu who has a theory about something called
"habitus." Your behavior, movements, speech, everything constantly points
out your "class," and influences the way the world reacts to you. He's
pretty right about that, think about it. He correctly points out that minorities
are only discriminated against these days if they don't give off the right
habitus, indicating that they are mainstream and share the predominant
culture. From my experiences he's absolutely right about that, too. I know
people who profess to be outright racists but make exceptions for a few
people who "are different... they're just like me."

Drnaline;7699 wrote:

Don't expect me to fund it for someone else because you think they were deprived. I've been there and done that and now i know the difference. Plenty of people have offered me handouts in my life, i could of taken them and been a ward of the state just like many of my friends. I chose different. They can step up and do the same thing. I'll expect nothing less of them.

Whoa, who's asking you to fund anything? We're not talking about Wellfare,
this has to do with people who work for a living and are trying to get jobs.

Look, the real point is that if you have kids or have them someday you're
going to teach them to be self-reliant and not idiots and work for what they
want. Me too. We know that you can get what you want if you work for it,
and neither one of us would consider living on welfare preferable to what
we have, or even acceptable in any instance.

The real problem we face in this country is the people who don't have the
idea that they CAN get anything in a reasonable way like working for it.
They're not all minorities. So, when Bill O'Reilly says "Affirmative Action
should be based on economic need and not race," and he has to be referring
to education because that's the only place that would make sense, I agree
with him, because underpriviledged people need to be shown there's a
way for them to work at things and succeed.

No, I've never been discriminated against, that I know of...

I've never used that to "get ahead" as far as a quota system, because I
had a pretty priviledged upbringing, and I don't need the help.

Then again, I get to choose, based on my appearance, whether I care to be
a minority or not. That's a big difference from someone who doesn't look
"white" like I do.

No, it isn't. Show me a documented case. It's only government sector, and
educational institutions, who get assistance from the government, and have
to meet those standards as a condition.

"Contractor Files Anti-Affirmative Action Suit Against San Francisco Air

Among other things, the ordinance requires contractors to either hire a
certain number of minority- and women-owned subcontractors or make a "good
faith effort" to do so. It also treats bids by minority- and woman-owned
businesses as if they are 5 percent to 10 percent lower than the actual bid.

No, I don't. I work around this everyday.

Are you saying that programmers are inclined to be prejudiced a bit one
way or the other? They are human.

Yes, you get extra points on a civil service grade for being a minority,
and a woman, and a veteran, and handicapped, and having a college degree, and having so much experience.

Then you should understand.

Neither have I. I got a degree, and that and the work I do has done the rest. I got selected for the program i attended based on my grades and the
work I submitted, blind. I have a brain, I have a certain amount of social
charm handed down from my parents and that has allowed me to navigate
through life pretty well. I read a lot of sociology and philosophy and there's
a guy named Pierre Bourdieu who has a theory about something called
"habitus." Your behavior, movements, speech, everything constantly points
out your "class," and influences the way the world reacts to you. He's
pretty right about that, think about it. He correctly points out that minorities
are only discriminated against these days if they don't give off the right
habitus, indicating that they are mainstream and share the predominant
culture. From my experiences he's absolutely right about that, too. I know
people who profess to be outright racists but make exceptions for a few
people who "are different... they're just like me."

Whoa, who's asking you to fund anything? We're not talking about Wellfare,
this has to do with people who work for a living and are trying to get jobs.

The real problem we face in this country is the people who don't have the
idea that they CAN get anything in a reasonable way like working for it.

They're not all minorities.

So, when Bill O'Reilly says "Affirmative Action
should be based on economic need and not race," and he has to be referring
to education because that's the only place that would make sense, I agree
with him, because underpriviledged people need to be shown there's a
way for them to work at things and succeed.

I guess i can assume that since you look white some doors open for you just on that premise.