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An Atheists Argument for God (or Something ike it.)

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2010 12:17 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Yeah but this still does not say they spontaneously arise without any cause.

Nor does it say they don't. But they certainly arise without any cause that we can identify. So you can't make a wide ranging claim that "things don't happen without a cause" because not only do we not know that, but we have indications to the contrary.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 09:30 pm
Bump
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 10:19 pm
@neologist,
This was a very successful thread. Still I cannot follow it enthusiastically (I'm thinking of Ossobuco here) given my inability to take seriously notions like "infinite" and "causation". To me the former suggests a lack of spatial and temporal dimension and I cannot find "causes" anywhere; I can barely think them (which is what they are for: to think with.)
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 10:38 pm
@JLNobody,
I think we must be forced to admit that we are unable to understand the true nature of space, time, energy, mass, and causality. Assumptions we make about reality are very much like running headlong in the dark. Is there a tree up there? A cliff?
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 10:47 pm
@neologist,
Yes, they are little more than abstractions reflecting our mentality more than the world
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 01:03 pm
@Sentience,
Quote:
This is because thermodynamics teaches that in any closed system the amount of heat in that system will eventually reach equilibrium.


We don't know if the universe is a closed system. Likely it's not, if thinking about it as one becomes paradoxical.
The real issue, of course, is that we haven't come up with a theory or system that can adequately explain this thing. We can conceive of the universe as a system, but does thermodynamics account for every kind of system that could possibly exist?
Intuitively I tend to think it's arrogant to believe that we humans are the most advanced sentient beings in the universe. Im starting more and more to see the entire universe as sentience itself, or should I perhaps say I've come to think of sentience as a phenomenon similar to gravity, in the sense that it will inevitably happen under certain circumstances where the combined participation of every little speck of matter creates reality.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 01:16 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
I tend to think it's arrogant to believe that we humans are the most advanced sentient beings in the universe.


I tend to hate beliefs myself but would you find it wrong to "think" that we "may" be indeed the most advanced sentient beings in the universe?

Quote:
Im starting more and more to see the entire universe as sentience itself


You think that the entire universe may have the ability to feel, perceive, or be conscious, or to experience subjectivity? If so what is it that makes you think this way?

I can see what you mean to a degree by how everything seems to have a reaction to other things but I was interested in how "you" see it.

Oh by the way I do value what you share.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 02:15 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Im starting more and more to see the entire universe as sentience itself, or should I perhaps say I've come to think of sentience as a phenomenon similar to gravity, in the sense that it will inevitably happen under certain circumstances where the combined participation of every little speck of matter creates reality.

Yes and it solves the 'how did life begin?' problem... energy/reality... includes sentience... it is possible... no need to emerge... my thoughts about it are tentatively similar to yours in this respect.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:49 pm
Interesting direction of the last few posts. I'm sure all must realize the theological implications of a sentient universe. . . If we were to include free will, then what?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 04:21 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Interesting direction of the last few posts. I'm sure all must realize the theological implications of a sentient universe. . . If we were to include free will, then what?

To me it wouldn't mean that there is a creator god or that one is needed...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 04:45 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
would you find it wrong to "think" that we "may" be indeed the most advanced sentient beings in the universe?


Well, I am not even sure we are the most advanced sentient beings on the planet, let alone the universe. Sentience is a process of many aspects. There are many animals with more advances senses than ours. There are even animals with senses we don't have at all.
What is the measure of our 'advancedness'?

Quote:
You think that the entire universe may have the ability to feel, perceive, or be conscious, or to experience subjectivity? If so what is it that makes you think this way?


I will answer that with another question. Does the universe have the ability to explode, evaporate, fall, go supernova, move at the speed of light, make black holes and make clouds?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 04:51 am
@igm,
igm wrote:
neologist wrote:
Interesting direction of the last few posts. I'm sure all must realize the theological implications of a sentient universe. . . If we were to include free will, then what?
To me it wouldn't mean that there is a creator god or that one is needed...
The cosmos, with all of it's seemingly boundless energy. . . . If it is indeed sentient. . . .If it has personality . . .That is pretty much my perception of Jehovah.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 06:21 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

igm wrote:
neologist wrote:
Interesting direction of the last few posts. I'm sure all must realize the theological implications of a sentient universe. . . If we were to include free will, then what?
To me it wouldn't mean that there is a creator god or that one is needed...
The cosmos, with all of it's seemingly boundless energy. . . . If it is indeed sentient. . . .If it has personality . . .That is pretty much my perception of Jehovah.

Is Jehovah a superior separate entity to you or are you an inseparable and equal aspect of Jehovah or do you not know either way?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 06:39 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
What is the measure of our 'advancedness'?


I was thinking in terms of technically advanced, advanced in language and so forth.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 07:58 am
@neologist,
Quote:
The cosmos, with all of it's seemingly boundless energy. . . . If it is indeed sentient. . . .If it has personality . . .


Not 'the universe is sentience'. The universe has sentience.
And why would it need personality? It has you and me and all the other sentient humans to manifest how sentience can be expressed in this particular configuration.
We might ask 'can the universe ask questions' and that's a little ironic, considering that it just did.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 08:06 am
@reasoning logic,
These things may not be advances. They could be distractions, depending on what we make and what we speak of with our language. But all that aside, if something happened that only small critters survived, would that not mean that critters were the most advanced sentient beings all along, if they were the only ones surviving? If all our tech and knowledge couldn't save us, it would be hard to argue that the sentience that produced all that was more advanced than the sentience of the critter, that spent it's time learning how to dig really deep and hide.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 02:09 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cryacuz writes:
"We don't know if the universe is a closed system. Likely it's not, if thinking about it as one becomes paradoxical...."Intuitively I tend to think it's arrogant to believe that we humans are the most advanced sentient beings in the universe. I'm starting more and more to see the entire universe as sentience itself, or should I perhaps say I've come to think of sentience as a phenomenon similar to gravity, in the sense that it will inevitably happen under certain circumstances where the combined participation of every little speck of matter creates reality. "

----------------
In this great post Cyracuz doubts whether the universe is a closed system. It seems to me that the observed universe does not nearly provide even a sketchy description of that "thing" we would like to explain "holistically." But regarding what we do observe, perhaps we can examine those aspects that have (or to which we can realistically or usefully ascribe) systemic qualities. In other words such aspects do not require a closed system, an entirety that is experienced, at least in principle, empirically. On the other hand, when people meditate they sometimes feel that their small experience of life is a kind of entirety in the sense that nothing seems to be missing (but that's a change of topic).
Regarding the Universe's sentience he observes that while it may not be sentient, it certainly has sentience. This cannot be doubted given that we have sentience and we are a property of the Universe. When I was asked once if the Universe is conscious, I made the above observation that it is to the extent that we are both conscious and part of the Universe. But Cryacuz goes farther, I think, in suggesting, I think, that like gravity consciousness or sentience is a universal potentiality. A powerful suggestion.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 10:40 pm
@igm,
There can be only one sovereign. Arguments against the trinity appy also against multiplicitty.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2013 10:43 pm
@Cyracuz,
The universe may or may not have both sentience and personality. That is simply my perception of how it might be.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2013 06:25 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

There can be only one sovereign. Arguments against the trinity appy also against multiplicitty.

So Jehovah is your creator?
 

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