Does "Nowhere" Exist?

@Chumly,

Chumly wrote:

fresco wrote:

but as to your argument as per the frontiers of physics, there are indeed absolutes such as absolute zero.

What argument is that?

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@Chumly,

Quote:

there are indeed absolutes such as absolute zero.

,,,which cannot be reached !

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
there are indeed absolutes such as absolute zero.
,,,which cannot be reached !

That it has not been reached does not make it any less likely to be an absolute. Interestingly, as you claim absolute zero cannot be reached, then by default that would be another absolute. Now we have two:
1) the numerical value itself
2) the fact that it cannot be reached (your claim not mine BTW)

1 Reply

@Chumly,

Doesn't "matter collapse" at absolute zero ? Either that or it takes "an infinite amount of energy" to achieve it (I can't remember). BTW, the "numerical value" is arbitrarily dependent on the scale utilized. Mathematically isn't it asymptotic like tan 90 ?.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Doesn't "matter collapse" at absolute zero ? Either that or it takes "an infinite amount of energy" to achieve it (I can't remember). BTW, the "numerical value" is arbitrarily dependent on the scale utilized. Mathematically isn't it asymptotic like tan 90 ?

Irrespective of the arbitrary nature of the assigned value it is still an absolute, as such the naming convention is not relevant.

As to what happens to matter at absolute zero, that is again irrelevant to the fact that nothing can be colder than absolute zero.

1 Reply

@Chumly,

Quote:

Absolute zero is the theoretical temperature at which entropy would reach its minimum value. The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe.

Wiki

Not to labour the point, I still think this puts "absolute zero" in the realm of "abstraction". I have no problem with that with respect to my definition of "existence, but I am suggesting that it might for "a realist". What is the difference, if any between "God as a prime mover, standing outside the universe" and "a thermodynamic system standing outside the universe" ?

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Wiki

Not to labour the point, I still think this puts "absolute zero" in the realm of "abstraction". I have no problem with that with respect to my definition of "existence, but I am suggesting that it might for "a realist". What is the difference, if any between "God as a prime mover, standing outside the universe" and "a thermodynamic system standing outside the universe" ?

one doesn't tell you what to do

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

ACB wrote:

The answer to the original question is no - "nowhere" does not exist, because the word does not refer to a thing, or even the absence of a thing. The word is an adverb meaning "not in any place". (Not a pronoun meaning "not any place".)

Are we all agreed on that?

Not I, as I previously stated, nowhere exists..... as an adverb....
That, I think is the only correct answer to the question as it is written.
To say nowhere doesn't exist is wrong, because, as ken has said, nowhere is at least a word, and words exist.

Just as although there are no mermaids, the word "mermaid" exists, so just as there is no such place as nowhere, the word "nowhere" exists. And just as it would be fallacious to infer from the fact that the word "unicorn" exists, that unicorns exist, so (well you take it from there).

I have a turtle in my fish tank that has remained nameless til today.
I have christened this turtle, of unknown sex, "nowhere"
Nowhere exists, he lives in my fish tank and eats brine shrimp. Smile

( for future references please see my profile)

1 Reply

@wayne,

wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

ACB wrote:

The answer to the original question is no - "nowhere" does not exist, because the word does not refer to a thing, or even the absence of a thing. The word is an adverb meaning "not in any place". (Not a pronoun meaning "not any place".)

Are we all agreed on that?

Not I, as I previously stated, nowhere exists..... as an adverb....
That, I think is the only correct answer to the question as it is written.
To say nowhere doesn't exist is wrong, because, as ken has said, nowhere is at least a word, and words exist.

Just as although there are no mermaids, the word "mermaid" exists, so just as there is no such place as nowhere, the word "nowhere" exists. And just as it would be fallacious to infer from the fact that the word "unicorn" exists, that unicorns exist, so (well you take it from there).

I have a turtle in my fish tank that has remained nameless til today.
I have christened this turtle, of unknown sex, "nowhere"
Nowhere exists, he lives in my fish tank and eats brine shrimp.

( for future references please see my profile)

Yes, you can use "nowhere" as a name, just as you can (as Ulysses did, call himself "Nobody" as he tried to slip by the Giants who asked him his name). But that does not mean that "nowhere" as ordinarily used is a name, anymore than it means that "nobody" as ordinarily used, is a name.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

I need a definite ruling here ! Does that mean I can use the name "Nobody" the next time I want to slip past giants ?... or maybe slip past mermaids? ...or slip by the capital of Ecuador?

We are all hanging on your answer O wise one !

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

I need a definite ruling here ! Does that mean I can use the name "Nobody" the next time I want to slip past giants ?... or maybe slip past mermaids? ...or slip by the capital of Ecuador?

We are all hanging on your answer O wise one !

No objection here. It is a free county. There is no law at all against being a dummy.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
Absolute zero is the theoretical temperature at which entropy would reach its minimum value. The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe.
Wiki

Not to labour the point, I still think this puts "absolute zero" in the realm of "abstraction". I have no problem with that with respect to my definition of "existence, but I am suggesting that it might for "a realist". What is the difference, if any between "God as a prime mover, standing outside the universe" and "a thermodynamic system standing outside the universe" ?

If you wish to consider absolute zero to be in the exclusive realm of abstractions because it cannot be obtained, then you would be wrong in the sense that is has a foundation in scientific methodology, empiricism and mathematical calculation. By your argument any measurement or calculation which does not have a definitive resolution cannot be other than an abstraction.

So let's consider the resonant frequency of a series RL circuit (that's when inductive reactance equals capacitive reactance and the inductor and capacitor are connected in series). Because the calculation uses pi the answer can never have complete precision. However that in no way stops electricians (like me!) from correcting power factor, nor electronics guys (like me!) from building equalizers.

Further your claim that absolute zero cannot be reached is in itself an absolute.

You ask "What is the difference, if any between God as a prime mover, standing outside the universe and a thermodynamic system standing outside the universe?"

OK I'll try; god (by some people's definition at least) would be a supernatural-omniscient-omnipotent-universe-creator whereas a thermodynamic system standing outside the universe would be a way to envision how absolute zero might be obtained irrespective (one might well argue) of it's present scientific plausibly.

2 Replies

@Chumly,

Okay, I'm playing Devils advocate with the boundaries of what I think realists hold to be "true" about the "the universe". I'm trying to argue that theism is no more or less logical than any other extrapolated position which resists "observation". You seemed to posit such a position with your co-ordinate reference to "everywhere" and "nowhere". Whether such a conclusion is valid for realists or not, my own position is immune from such argument.I argue these concepts do have existence by reference to a co-ordinate model, but in relationship to other concepts within dialogue
e.g "He came out of nowhere".
Those who would argue that this is equivalent to
"I did not see where he came from"
are missing the dramatic essence which is part of the meaning of the first expression. Note that concepts cannot exist except in relationship to other
concepts thereby forming a contextual Gestalt, in which the whole meaning is greater that the sum of its parts.

2 Replies

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

e.g "He came out of nowhere".
Those who would argue that this is equivalent to
"I did not see where he came from"
are missing the dramatic essence which is part of the meaning of the

Ah yes, the dramatic essence. You must think that this is the theater. Of course someone who says something like, "he came out of nowhere", especially punctuated with an exclamation mark, is putting a little drama into what he is saying. But suppose someone is looking for the cat high and low, and then spies the cat on the mat, and says, in great relief, "The cat is on the mat!". Well, the person may be dramatic, but what makes you think that what the person says is dramatic. You are confusing the speaker with what the speaker says. Anything can be said dramatically, even that 2 + 2=4, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of what is said. It has to do with who said it.

It is "devil's advocate" and not "devils advocate". And besides, that means you are arguing for the side you are opposed to. Not the side you support.

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@fresco,

True if someone had meant I didn't see where he came from, s/he likely would have said it. Semantics have very little to do with pragmatics and prosodics. Most of what we take for granted in language is pragmatic and it does tend to form a contextual gestalt or as socio-linguists call it, a frame of reference. there are several reasons why out of nowehere is more dramatic than didn't see. The primary one being that out of nowehere is less used overall, but more often used in situations that are more dramatic, or more dramtically expressed in regards to prosidy.

1 Reply

@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead wrote:

True if someone had meant I didn't see where he came from, s/he likely would have said it. Semantics have very little to do with pragmatics and prosodics. Most of what we take for granted in language is pragmatic and it does tend to form a contextual gestalt or as socio-linguists call it, a frame of reference. there are several reasons why out of nowehere is more dramatic than didn't see. The primary one being that out of nowehere is less used overall, but more often used in situations that are more dramatic, or more dramtically expressed in regards to prosidy.

It would be more interesting if I could understand some of your sentences. What does, "true if someone had meant I didn't see where he came from, s/he likely would have said it." mean? Anything. But I hazard a guess that you have some kind of argument going, is that right? If so, what is the conclusion, and how are you supporting that conclusion? Of course, you may not have any argument going at all, for all I know. Then, of course, who knows what you are trying to say?

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@Chumly,

Typo:

....I argue these concepts do NOT have existence by reference to a co-ordinate model.....

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Typo:

....I argue these concepts do NOT have existence by reference to a co-ordinate model.....

Really! Do you? And what does that mean?

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I've been nowhere I can't name, on a horse with nobody's name.
It felt good to be out of the rain.

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As I was walking on the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today
Oh, how I wish he'd go away!

I have a feeling that some posters might be speculating on who that man who wasn't there, is.

2 Replies

Does "Nowhere" Exist?

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