10
   

Does "Nowhere" Exist?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 03:47 pm
@Chumly,
...all places is very different from no places...
All, is actually well defined !
0 Replies
 
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 04:15 pm
@Chumly,
Chumly wrote:
Yes nowhere exists, because nowhere by definition has ill-defined coordinates and by the same token everywhere has ill-defined coordinates. Thus nowhere is the same as everywhere

That is a logical fallacy (affirming the consequent).
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 04:51 pm
@Chumly,
Chumly,

An interesting answer from a "realist" ! Now all you need to do is realise that any reference frame of co-ordinates is a matter of agreement and you are on your way to understanding "existence". Wink
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2010 05:11 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Chumly,

An interesting answer from a "realist" ! Now all you need to do is realise that any reference frame of co-ordinates is a matter of agreement and you are on your way to understanding "existence". Wink


What is a "realist" and how is a "realist" different from a realist? Of course, the coordinates are the result of a convention. But where an area is when the convention has been established is not a matter of convention. Just as whether something is called, "dog" is a matter of convention, but once the convention has been established, a Great Dene is a dog. What we call anything is a matter of convention, but that does not mean that what something is, is a matter of convention (or what you call, "agreement"). We agree that something is true because it is true; it is not that something is true because we agree it is. No amount of agreement will make it true that Mars is the fifth planet from the Sun.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 12:00 am
@ACB,
ACB wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Yes nowhere exists, because nowhere by definition has ill-defined coordinates and by the same token everywhere has ill-defined coordinates. Thus nowhere is the same as everywhere

That is a logical fallacy (affirming the consequent).
No I am not "affirming the consequent" I am demonstrating the commonality. It's a well understood argument that commonality equates with similarity.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 12:08 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Chumly,

An interesting answer from a "realist" ! Now all you need to do is realise that any reference frame of co-ordinates is a matter of agreement and you are on your way to understanding "existence". Wink
The question is whether there can be an absolute set of coordinates, if said coordinates constitute everywhere. I argue that because said coordinates constitute everywhere, they are infinite in their dimensionality, thus absolute by default. There is no consensus needed for coordinates that constitute everywhere.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 12:10 am
@kennethamy,
I have a long established dialogue with Chumly which sets the context of my comments to him.

As for you, put "Pluto" in your pipe and smoke it !
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 01:05 am
@ACB,
ACB wrote:

The answer to the original question is no - "nowhere" does not exist, because the word does not refer to a thing, or even the absence of a thing. The word is an adverb meaning "not in any place". (Not a pronoun meaning "not any place".)

Are we all agreed on that?




Not I, as I previously stated, nowhere exists..... as an adverb....
That, I think is the only correct answer to the question as it is written.
To say nowhere doesn't exist is wrong, because, as ken has said, nowhere is at least a word, and words exist.
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 05:53 am
@wayne,
wayne wrote:
To say nowhere doesn't exist is wrong, because, as ken has said, nowhere is at least a word, and words exist.

Yes, I agree that the word exists.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 06:48 am
@wayne,
wayne wrote:

ACB wrote:

The answer to the original question is no - "nowhere" does not exist, because the word does not refer to a thing, or even the absence of a thing. The word is an adverb meaning "not in any place". (Not a pronoun meaning "not any place".)

Are we all agreed on that?




Not I, as I previously stated, nowhere exists..... as an adverb....
That, I think is the only correct answer to the question as it is written.
To say nowhere doesn't exist is wrong, because, as ken has said, nowhere is at least a word, and words exist.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 06:52 am
@wayne,
wayne wrote:

ACB wrote:

The answer to the original question is no - "nowhere" does not exist, because the word does not refer to a thing, or even the absence of a thing. The word is an adverb meaning "not in any place". (Not a pronoun meaning "not any place".)

Are we all agreed on that?






Not I, as I previously stated, nowhere exists..... as an adverb....
That, I think is the only correct answer to the question as it is written.
To say nowhere doesn't exist is wrong, because, as ken has said, nowhere is at least a word, and words exist.


Just as although there are no mermaids, the word "mermaid" exists, so just as there is no such place as nowhere, the word "nowhere" exists. And just as it would be fallacious to infer from the fact that the word "unicorn" exists, that unicorns exist, so (well you take it from there).
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 12:41 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
I have a long established dialogue with Chumly which sets the context of my comments to him.
I have much respect for fresco and always find his posts very thought provoking and well thought out. I'm not really certain I can embrace all his arguments wholeheartedly, nonetheless they are great food for thought! And from my point of view, the real fun comes from challenging / being challenged by thoughtful posters of which fresco is a premier example.
GoshisDead
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 12:43 pm
@Chumly,
What's with the lovefest? iIthought we were here to pick apart trivialities.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 01:11 pm
@Chumly,
Thank you for your response.
I have a problem with the word "absolute" because it has religious overtones. My own interpretation of "knowhere exists" is that "knowhere" is a concept contextually utilised with respect to other concepts.(and you may remember me arguing "concepts are all we've got").
IMO As long as "existence" is interpreted as involving "physicality" there will be interminable futile arguments about the "reality" of abstract concepts. But one only needs to monitor the frontiers of physics to realize that "physicality" is itself a nebulous realm (consider "nonlocality" as just one example).
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 01:37 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

. My own interpretation of "knowhere exists" is that "knowhere" is a concept


To say that nowhere is a concept raises the question, what then is the concept of nowhere? Or, are the concept of nowhere and nowhere identical. In which case, all you are saying is that there is the concept of nowhere, but there is no nowhere. If you don't understand this let me give you a parallel. Suppose someone were to say that mermaid is a concept. Well, that would raise the question, what then would mermaids be? Unless what you are really saying is that there is the concept of mermaid, but there are no mermaids. Which is, of course, quite true. The distinction carefully made by Frege between concept and object should not be confused. One way of confusing them is to say (as you do) that X is a concept when all you mean is that the concept of X is a concept (obviously true) and that only the concept of X exists (but X, itself, does not exist). Then all you are doing is inferring from the premise that the concept of X exists, the conclusion that X (itself) exists. And, as I hope you can see, that inference is fallacious. For instance, although it is true that the concept of mermaid exists, it is false that mermaids exist. Just as, for instance, although it is true that pictures of mermaids exist, it is not true, and so, does not follow, that mermaids exist. And just as a picture of a mermaid is not a mermaid, so a concept of a mermaid is not a mermaid. Isn't that clear?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 01:50 pm
@kennethamy,
Clear as mud !
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 01:56 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Clear as mud !


Well, I did not think you would find it clear. You seek obscurity. Do you believe that because a picture of a mermaid exists, that mermaids exist? If not, then why would you think that because the concept of a mermaid exists that mermaids exist? Or to make the point very clear, why would you think that because the concept of nowhere exists, that nowhere exists?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 02:07 pm
@kennethamy,
You keep wittering about "existence" from a naive realist's point of view. That is rhetorically equivalent to theists wittering to you about the number of angels who can dance on the end of a pin. If you have nothing to say about my interpretation of existence then do us all a favour and SAY NOTHING!
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 02:16 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

You keep wittering about "existence" from a naive realist's point of view. That is rhetorically equivalent to theists wittering to you about the number of angels who can dance on the end of a pin. If you have nothing to say about my interpretation of existence then do us all a favour and SAY NOTHING!


Because I say that mermaids don't exist that is a Realist's point of view? Whose point of view is it that mermaids do exist? A three year old's point of view. Do you believe in mermaids, fresco? what about Santa Claus? I mean from any sane grown-up view at all. Are you actually saying that Idealist (or whoever isn't a Realist) believe in mermaids? Or that on your interpretation of existence that there are mermaids? In that case, I suggest that you examine your interpretation of existence. Do you want to go on record someone who believes in mermaids? Think of your reputation!

0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2010 02:36 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Thank you for your response.
I have a problem with the word "absolute" because it has religious overtones. My own interpretation of "knowhere exists" is that "knowhere" is a concept contextually utilised with respect to other concepts.(and you may remember me arguing "concepts are all we've got").
IMO As long as "existence" is interpreted as involving "physicality" there will be interminable futile arguments about the "reality" of abstract concepts. But one only needs to monitor the frontiers of physics to realize that "physicality" is itself a nebulous realm (consider "nonlocality" as just one example).
It's true absolute can have religious implications (and it's often humorous if nothing else to use it in that context) but as to your argument as per the frontiers of physics, there are indeed absolutes such as absolute zero.
 

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