GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 12:39 am
@sometime sun,
we might have burned out this thread
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 01:05 am
I think we should take this thread and approach it just like a crime investigator would. Think about it, when a murder occurs, the investigator isn't actually there witnessing the crime happen. That might sound like common sense but it was necessary to point out and make it a distinct reference point. The investigator comes in after the crime occurs and surveys the scene to try and piece together what might have happened. I think we should do the same with this topic. Some of you might be scratching your head wondering how this would even be possible. Normally I would agree with you, because the one missing part is that in a crime, there is obviously a perpetrator that exists, it is just a matter of the investigation finding that person or persons. Where as with god, the existence is not known so how can you determine who is guilty if the perpetrator doesn't even exist? It would be like looking at a crime scene that was nothing more than an accident of natural occurring events without a person executing those events to occur.

Let's start there.
CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 08:25 am
@Krumple,
So, is that an assertion that murder and death of innocent folk is merely natural events?
Seems logical.
Still, I don't feel this question can even be discussed unless any part involved agrees to, at least for the time being, believe that god exists. If there is no belief on their behalf, the argument steers into another direction entirely, which weve seen happen very quickly.

It should be stated more like:
"Assuming god exists, and assuming god is the creator of life as we know it, is he a murderer?"
0 Replies
 
Sentience
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 11:59 am
@GoshisDead,
In that case, yes. Whether or not justified, he has murdered people, and thus is a murderer.

I remember on another forums and in another thread, someone said "If God came down to earth, we would probably just try to kill him. Oh wait..." My response was: Depending on whether your country has the death penalty or not, he has done all that is required within the law to be given the death penalty. Excluding all metaphysical ideas of the death he causes, he killed hundreds of innocent Egyptian children, hundreds of his own Jews during Bemidbar (the Book of Numbers, means In The Wilderness in Hebrew) simply for complaining, etc.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 12:37 pm
@Sentience,

The real question is, Can god murder?
Can God be held accountable for a law that was not commanded him? (addressed in several posts at the beginning of the thread)
If we are a creation ex nilhio or otherwise, does that make us more than whatever the eternal equivalent of property?
If I were to make a sculpture out of clay then decide that I didn't like it, then destroy it, does it make me a murderer?
This brings into play the qualitative and quantitative cognition difference between me and clay and between me and God.
It also brings into play the motives of a supreme being in charge of a universe. Is S/he a utilitarian? Would the death of tens of thousands of Egyptians be righteous, if their living threw a kink into the whole universal plan and stability?
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 06:45 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:


The real question is, Can god murder?
Can God be held accountable for a law that was not commanded him? (addressed in several posts at the beginning of the thread)
If we are a creation ex nilhio or otherwise, does that make us more than whatever the eternal equivalent of property?
If I were to make a sculpture out of clay then decide that I didn't like it, then destroy it, does it make me a murderer?
This brings into play the qualitative and quantitative cognition difference between me and clay and between me and God.
It also brings into play the motives of a supreme being in charge of a universe. Is S/he a utilitarian? Would the death of tens of thousands of Egyptians be righteous, if their living threw a kink into the whole universal plan and stability?
Yea, if God is the lawmaker... the standard of good, then anything it does must be good, whether we understand that or not. People who believe in hell can usually be counted upon to defend it by saying that God doesn't do it... the sinner puts himself there. In the same way, the Egyptians would be held responsible for ending up at the bottom of the Red Sea. And the Israelites were responsibile for their defeat at the hands of the Assyrians... which responsibility the Bible says they did take. Generally speaking, the victim is responsible. I think this is an old way of thinking that still shapes outlooks now. The problem is there is some wisdom in it... some.

The whole trolley falls in a ditch, though, when we think about attributes of God like omnipotence. Action requires limited power. Action with unlimited power doesn't make any sense. If God is omnipotent, he can't act... there's no object to act upon. Such an object would have to have power separate from God's.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 08:55 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:

I'm not sure I should be asking this question as I think I have an answer.

Is God a murderer?

Even if your idea is that God does not exist,
from what you know of the ideas and sightings of God, is God a murderer?


If you read the appaling Book of Numbes chapter 31 it would seem that he really is a murder O
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 09:00 pm
@Pemerson,
Pemerson wrote:

I don't think the god of the Bible is the same as the loving Father that Jesus described and, who, he says is within us all. The Old Testament god is our tester, tormentor, and tempter. Jesus resisted those temptations, so can we by seeking the one within.




Especially if we read the appalling Chapter 31 of numbers in the bile. I tend to agree with your sentiments, was YAHWEH also the loving heavenly father that Jesus prayed to all the time?
0 Replies
 
michs
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 04:10 pm
@CarbonSystem,
did no one one read the bible. and if not. man has free will this means to do right or wrong as a choice of our own. it is our own doing. we choose to murder, exstorsion, rape, ect. we are our own enemy. god said no man shall be perfect and pure.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 08:47 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:

I'm not sure I should be asking this question as I think I have an answer.

Is God a murderer?

Even if your idea is that God does not exist,
from what you know of the ideas and sightings of God, is God a murderer?


in a sense yes

it depends on how view this god

is this god intelligent , if this god is give examples , for I find no evidence

or could we look at god as immature , for example , didn't really understand his subjects , which consequently lead to variations on his theme on which he wasn't able to anticipate , which leads to complex derivatives of Human interpertation

hence confusion , and inevitable death of millions , now and in the future

only god can correct this situation

I await gods correct
0 Replies
 
william009
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jan, 2013 07:43 pm
If god made the heaven and the earth and everting on the earth the he is indeed a murderer no doubt about it. in fact he killed more people then anyone.
william009
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jan, 2013 07:53 pm
@william009,
if god made all things including all Diseases then i say he is a mass murderer worse then anyone in jail now.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jan, 2013 08:15 pm
@GoshisDead,
Quote:
he Judeo-Christian Commandment is Thou Shalt not Kill. as well as Thou shalt this thou shalt not that. The commandment was directed at humanity not himself.


The commandment did not cover Moses either as he order large scale killings within the tribes when he came down from the mountain with the commandments.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jan, 2013 08:17 pm
@mister kitten,
Quote:
God would be some psycho to destroy his own creations.


See the story of the flood where he drown all the human race but for one family including infants.
0 Replies
 
imans
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 04:50 pm
the question is so cute, wat does it mean a murderer ?? r u shootin a smart production of lies around here or wat

murder this word is used for thrill movies only, who kill mister in that sophisticated script

when u mean god u should use the normal word at least and invent a much more living one that suit the mean being the most powerful over everyone, u start with criminal at least

u should learn to pretend askin smthg better

when u ask a question dont look to what is left there that the question didnt point, for the answer look at the question itself origin
learn to pretend knowin that the answer is in the question bc question is in a way true reality so truth give u the answer already in the question

so is god a criminal???

seein deaths everywhere dont mean the answer

the answer is in the concept of what is god, in absolute identification of that term in truth god is it criminal

by definition god is the term used to mean what is one as the only one always absolutely, confirmin constantly the non existence of else as his way of being living

so of course it is the least we can say about god from outside, who dont even ever recognize that we could exist
so never any right exist too nor truth but that is another story that relate more to the true identity of all including urselves

0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 07:12 pm
If God created man, would it not be fair to assume hypothetically that he would be the only one fit to judge as to wether a man may live or die?

Keeping it real here, the bible does not say God loves all man, in fact it seems from scripture he quite despises most of mankind.

Playing out some moral refinement in the thread, are any of the following murderers?

Secretary of Defence
Soldier
Abortion doctor
Judge (capital punishment)
Gun Wielding Cop
Euthanasia clinic practitioner
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 08:23 am
As Stendhal reminds us, God's defense is his non-existence.
0 Replies
 
imans
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 10:13 am
@Smileyrius,
no u create logics as u dream to reach seeing logics being created

whatever u create make u existing accordin to its reality

that is how in true logic, what u do make u protectin and supportin it always for sure

that is how moron a mother or a father but a mother more since she hold the baby in her belly for months and see him really growin healthy in her, support and protect her children even if she is evil one till they die
while a woman know that she is only witnessin how the baby is made in her

so that prove how god is not a creator of anything, so he is always exclusively destructor to anything and any other right reality and to the concept of else existence, while abusin its fact knowledge of being true

u keep repeatin that god created u, at least say smthg that could give a picture of that while u r as a body talkin
it is like wat u also repeat that love is everything in total darkness of what do u mean

plz enlighten us, what is a creator, give an example at least without usin the word creator
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jan, 2013 04:00 am
@imans,
I understand what you mean Imans, perhaps Creator is a term that is overused and rendered fluff.

I believe that God is a builder, a scientist and a programmer. That he built the earth from the ground up, adjusted the form of the earth to accept life, manipulated elements, and implanted life with coding to make it adapt and reproduce, including man. He gave mankind a job and instructions, man rejected God and decided to live free of him, tending toward destructive means.

Essentially we are playing out the Earth Beta program, working out the bugs,

God has given man time and freedom to prove his course wrong, and that man needs Gods leadership kind of like a computer program still needs programmers beyond its release, he even had a book written as a manual for life, while keeping in tact a plan to free man from his own demise once the great debate has played out. At which time he will judge as to wether we would be worth anything to his planned reboot - Earth 2.0.

is that more to what you ask Imans?
imans
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Jan, 2013 01:39 pm
@Smileyrius,
no it is not at all what i asked

u r repeatin the same bullshit of sc fictions lowest standards movies, and lousiest pretenders of being artists do, inventin a whole thing story in one second since u r given a mouth
what clever u r to use ur mouth for what never exist, looser liar u go to hell u will see

i asked u to explain what is a creator without picturin things created end

wat elements is he manipulatin wat are u talkin about

it is obvious how u dont have even any sense of nothing so u cant mean a creator really since by definition it would b out of nothing always

if there are some elements already then deformin or manipulatin things already existin for mankind doesnt it make him a creator at all, while it is a total invention of ur head kind for what u want to b counted as existing being of god creations in what it suits ur evil liar type

let me tell u smthg at least when i type a post i say smthg clearly
which by itself prove the liar u r

out of nothing, there is nothing, then there is the out of nothing alone

so ur god the most he really mean to do smthg out of nothing the most he cant do any at all, locked totally apart even of reality concept which is of nothing so true space

the truth of being able to do anything is only through relation with absolute superiority to what the will is, so as a begger and opportunists which is the type u know too of urself

soon all darkness is gonna fall down on u and ur gods and ur life

that sentence of me is surely much more valuable in logics and reality of present existence then urs

absolute superiority is superior to itself upon itself always, which again prove how right i am, there is no way that possible maker could destroy what it makes in any glimse of suggestion shape

what is always more up is always through renforcin positive existence to whatever down, at least by its fact result upon any existing sense

while ur god his presence dont do anything but make anyone feel being **** rememberin how far alone he feels much superior and objectively proven

and there where ur god denounce himself, for what he cant b but a begger itself for any to take from else, even an insect is forced to give god and that is why it ends with such dirty shape, with best possible ends of superiority realisations

for how long do u think truth is gonna work for god destructions and dirt upon rights

not for ever that is for sure bitch while it should b stopped now
 

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