Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2015 10:41 am
@argome321,
Thank you for that response, Argome. We have some area of disagreement on the value of the particular tautology I am using in this particular conversation…but all in all, I agree that a tautology will not get one very far.

Same can be said of a syllogism. Nothing new comes from a syllogism…it merely focuses attention on how the conclusion is derived, which is sort of the way I am using the “what IS…IS” tautology.

I do have a significant disagreement on one matter…and I will address that.


Quote:
Quote:

If the REALITY of “what is going on here” is whatever it is (without knowing what it is)…then any claim that it is relative or subjective evaporates. No matter what it IS…that is what it is.



I agree, but for me the Ultimate reality is the one that I can experience not one that I can't know. So R and r are the one and the same..for me.


My problem with that is…it is possible the ultimate REALITY is not contingent upon your agreement or experience…nor upon mine…nor upon anyone else’s. The ultimate REALITY may be completely independent of what any being thinks about it…completely independent of the considerations or experience of any being, human or otherwise.

We do not know.

The R and r may be the same for you…but what does that mean other than “my considerations about REALITY are that R and r…are the same.” (If you are wondering, I did have fun writing the end of that sentence.)
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
My problem with that is…it is possible the ultimate REALITY is not contingent upon your agreement or experience…nor upon mine…nor upon anyone else’s. The ultimate REALITY may be completely independent of what any being think about it…completely independent of the considerations or experience of any being, human or otherwise.



I totally agree that reality both R and r are not contingent upon my agreement.And I am not saying that reality is relative... quite the opposite. Reality is consisted of what we know and what we don't know.

Two months ago you were not part of my reality nor I yours, but that doesn't mean either one of us weren't or are not real. The possibility of our existence was and is quite plausible and that is apart of being as being refers to potential. But life experiences teaches us what may or may not be possible. It's the old "If a tree falls in a forest. To this degree we know something. Unless we are totally warped in our own egocentric wombs and idiosyncrasies we know there is more to the world than just ourselves.


Quote:
We do not know.


How do we not know? I think at times we are good at reasoning, using and analyzing with our resources the world in which we live in and the world around us. That knowledge may be a drop in the bucket, but I think we aren't scurrying around like chickens with our heads cut off or void of insight and knowledge that allows us to have technology?
Technology must work on some steady law of the physical word that we've learned or there can be no medicine, no technical advancements,
Some of our perceptions of reality must be true, true about what I think you are referring to as the Ultimate reality. for now, for me, I can't see it being any other way. Reality may be complicate but I don't believe it is unknowable./b]

[quote]The R and r may be the same for you…but what does that mean other than “my considerations about REALITY are that R and r…are the same.” (If you are wondering, I did have fun writing the end of that sentence.)
[/quote]

I wonder how Barbara Walters would have pronounced it? LOL


0 Replies
 
ApollosEnvy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 03:12 am
@mark noble,
Does nothing exist?
Yes of course nothing exists, everything has a counterpart.
There is no happy without sad.
Nothing and reality are both concepts, But they are also opposites.
Which solidify them both to be truth.
There is no light without dark.
I personally believe that to prove that "nothing" exists
non semantically of course, would be our own deaths.
To have a perception of nothing, to feel nothing, to be no longer existent would be nothing. But technically speaking If we're here now experiencing something it will always be something. Also technically speaking even experiencing nothing would be a form of existence.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 05:37 am
@ApollosEnvy,
Quote:
Yes of course nothing exists, everything has a counterpart.


What is the counter part of an upside down cake a downside up cake? How could you tell the difference?

But in all seriousness, in math and logic somethings sometimes are not conversely true.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 01:54 pm
My debit card. . . What is on it? . . .
Oh [email protected]$#p! Nothing!
Empty space. . . What's in it? . . .
(Disregarding a few stray subatomic particles) . . . Nothing!
Just cleaned the garage. . . What's in it? . . .
Nothing!
Why do I ask these stupid questions? . . .
No reason!
Other than to underscore the futility of the OP.
Just as reality is not relative. Nothing is. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2015 08:59 pm
I saw nothing in this thread...
peter jeffrey cobb
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2015 03:39 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
X+o=X
Basic math tells you that once a space is occupied, empty space no longer exists.
The "structure of space" occupies all we know about.
You can only detect photons that directly hits you........ because "the structure of space" blocks your view from all the rest.
Without "the structure of space" present, all you will see is a big glare.
That is my real name if you want to give me.............. a certificate of achievement........... for my structure of space.
;-)
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 03:16 am
@peter jeffrey cobb,
Hello Peter ! How are you ? Long time no see... Smile

Personally I don't believe "zero" is what most people tend to think it is...
"Zero" for me represents a balance of opposing forces, or opposing anything, not nothingness.

Zero is the result of opposing balance between things that exist !

The structure of space is curved by matter and HAS the PROPERTY of alloying stuff to move in it. (At least classically thinking)

It could be argued nothing really moves and spacetime with matter in it is just a big 4D block...but then perception, detection, of what is existing works like swapping from a radio station to another. Both stations keep existing but the swapping gives you the illusion one substituted the other.

As I see it, there is no barrier to "existence", there is no outside...
"Zeros" in existence, are like the space and time took between things that replace each other in our perception of what NOW is.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 05:15 am
The question "does nothing exist" is sorta like the question "can a square circle exist."

It is a definitional thing. If it is "nothing" is does not exist...in the way that if it is a square, it is not a circle.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 05:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

The question "does nothing exist" is sorta like the question "can a square circle exist."

It is a definitional thing. If it is "nothing" is does not exist...in the way that if it is a square, it is not a circle.



Yes but we needed (so far) 86 pages to get to such a simple conclusion as a collective here in the forums...how can one have hope in Humanity's future ?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 05:25 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
At times I have no hope for humanities future, Fil...and I find myself rooting for the machines in the Terminator movies.

Maybe Stephen Hawking is right that if we invent an Artificial Intelligence, its first job will be to end humanity. That seems to be the most intelligent direction to take.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Mar, 2015 05:30 am
@Frank Apisa,
To tell you the truth it almost feels like a natural step in evolution...
Carbon based creatures are slow at electric wiring...wrong material.
Some degree of intelligence was needed to transform materials...nature got us that so we could achieve the point where the system can swap for silicone.
I am confident my generation wont see it...(41 here)
I don't mind being a dinosaur either...although sometimes it does not show I am a humble person.
0 Replies
 
josephineperry2010
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 02:55 am
@mark noble,
wow, nice question....I don't know the answer, though. . It might well exist, as we couldn't conceive the notion of nothingness otherwise...ehm....I suppose...
0 Replies
 
nseyer97
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 08:48 am
@mark noble,
No nothing does not exist. Humans look at death as if it leads to eternal darkness. This is not true. There is simply a change of form. Humans are simply too unsympathetic to see life in this change
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 04:11 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

As simple as that.........DOES NOTHING EXIST???

In your opinion - does nothing exist, has it ever existed, can it ever exist?


Just tell it as you see it! All are welcome to throw it out there.

Thank you guys.
Mark...


If it can't detected by your five senses, it doesn't exist.

“What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO.” John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

“When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.” Mark Twain
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 04:36 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:
If it can't detected by your five senses, it doesn't exist.


Before I comment on this...I just gotta ask:

Are you just screwing around with this...or are you seriously asserting this?
0 Replies
 
FarbodSadra
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2015 01:03 pm
Well, Nope, it doesnt exist.
Existance and Absence (as you call it nothing, but absence is correct) are two opposed concepts. Something exists or it doesn't and there is no way out of this: It is foresure one and only one of them (not less and more). Saying absence exists is like saying an odd number is an even number in the same time; Impossible.
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2015 02:38 pm
@FarbodSadra,

The discussion about nothing exists is interesting since none of the posters has explained how nothing can or has the ability to manifest thought .

FarbodSadra
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2015 08:25 pm
@north,
If we can imagine nothing, then it wont be nothing. Lol
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2015 01:45 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
where there is space at all, that is something
What is that something ?


Energy
 

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