guigus
 
  2  
Sun 8 May, 2011 07:05 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Whatever has being
is only what we are seeing.


So if a truck is going to hit you, then you just close your eyes and the truck goes away? Good luck.

Cyracuz wrote:
Esse est percipi


This philosophical position is as much outdated as the habit of presenting philosophical ideas in Latin.
0 Replies
 
TheoryJester
 
  1  
Mon 9 May, 2011 06:48 am
@guigus,
I think if something has been proven it then becomes a fact. If something has no proof of existence then it is fiction.
Your suggesting that 'nothing' is somewhere in between, making it completely neutral.
Even though a complete neutral affects nothing at all and is irrelevant to anything can still mean it is something haha
guigus
 
  1  
Wed 11 May, 2011 02:41 am
@TheoryJester,
TheoryJester wrote:

I think if something has been proven it then becomes a fact. If something has no proof of existence then it is fiction.
Your suggesting that 'nothing' is somewhere in between, making it completely neutral.
Even though a complete neutral affects nothing at all and is irrelevant to anything can still mean it is something haha


You are totally mistaking it: being and nothingness are the same, that's what I am saying. This makes nothing far from neutral.
TheoryJester
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2011 10:32 am
@guigus,
Im still trying to understand how they can be the same? It defies logic, everything in this reality has some kind of molecular structure, 'nothing' does not its completely opposite
zt09
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2011 11:04 am
@TheoryJester,
Code:everything in this reality has some kind of molecular structure, 'nothing' does not its completely opposite


Probably this is as we perceive nothing being one of its integral parts as something that differs from nothing.
north
 
  1  
Sat 14 May, 2011 10:42 pm
@zt09,

Quote:
Code:everything in this reality has some kind of molecular structure, 'nothing' does not its completely opposite


Quote:
Probably this is as we perceive nothing being one of its integral parts as something that differs from nothing.


not " probably " but is , nothing has NO molecular structure at all , it simply can't and nothing doesn't even have the potential to have any kind of structure

TheoryJester
 
  1  
Sun 15 May, 2011 09:20 am
@north,
So North would you agree with Guigus that they are the same? Take the human consciousness out of the equation, what part does 'nothing' play in the universe?

It has no part, in a show that was never written and made by a company that does not exist (excuse my cheesy metaphor)
north
 
  1  
Sun 15 May, 2011 08:31 pm
@TheoryJester,

Quote:
So North would you agree with Guigus that they are the same?


NO

something and nothing are NOT the same they are the exact opposites of each other


Quote:
Take the human consciousness out of the equation, what part does 'nothing' play in the universe?


NONE

Quote:
It has no part, in a show that was never written and made by a company that does not exist (excuse my cheesy metaphor)


depends what you mean here

but in my my words , nothing has no part in the Universe as far as anything to do with the make up of the Universe and nothing is a concept of the imagination by us , only
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2011 07:10 am
@TheoryJester,
TheoryJester wrote:

Im still trying to understand how they can be the same? It defies logic, everything in this reality has some kind of molecular structure, 'nothing' does not its completely opposite


It defies a certain type of logic, namely, the formal simplification of Aristotelian logic born in the nineteenth century -- which we call "Classical." Since you are evoking physics, just take a look at the quantum variety of it, and you'll see how that kind of logic fails. Logic today is a very broad branch of knowledge, and there are many types of logic, far beyond the Classical variety you are mistaking for the only existing one.
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2011 08:10 am
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

TheoryJester wrote:

Im still trying to understand how they can be the same? It defies logic, everything in this reality has some kind of molecular structure, 'nothing' does not its completely opposite


It defies a certain type of logic, namely, the formal simplification of Aristotelian logic born in the nineteenth century -- which we call "Classical." Since you are evoking physics, just take a look at the quantum variety of it, and you'll see how that kind of logic fails. Logic today is a very broad branch of knowledge, and there are many types of logic, far beyond the Classical variety you are mistaking for the only existing one.


Actually, what they call "Quantum Logic" is simply a logic that is a weaker system of Classical logic. It still uses some of the axioms but not all, e.g., law of excluded middle.

It does not defy it, it is simply not applicable. It's a misuse of the Classical system.

But yes there are many different logics, each with its own use. You have alethic, epistemic, deontic, locative, topological, dynamic, etc. and their second-order versions as well.
guigus
 
  1  
Wed 18 May, 2011 09:23 pm
@Ding an Sich,
Ding an Sich wrote:

guigus wrote:

TheoryJester wrote:

Im still trying to understand how they can be the same? It defies logic, everything in this reality has some kind of molecular structure, 'nothing' does not its completely opposite


It defies a certain type of logic, namely, the formal simplification of Aristotelian logic born in the nineteenth century -- which we call "Classical." Since you are evoking physics, just take a look at the quantum variety of it, and you'll see how that kind of logic fails. Logic today is a very broad branch of knowledge, and there are many types of logic, far beyond the Classical variety you are mistaking for the only existing one.


Actually, what they call "Quantum Logic" is simply a logic that is a weaker system of Classical logic. It still uses some of the axioms but not all, e.g., law of excluded middle.

It does not defy it, it is simply not applicable. It's a misuse of the Classical system.

But yes there are many different logics, each with its own use. You have alethic, epistemic, deontic, locative, topological, dynamic, etc. and their second-order versions as well.


Stop thinking of Classical logic as being the mother of all kinds of logic: it is not. The father of the principles that Classical logic claims as its own was Aristotle, which was also the first one to question those principles in the very moment he was creating them: they are problematic from birth.

There is a very common misconception that Classical logic has something to do with philosophical truth, when it actually doesn't: Classical logic gives away on the problem of truth so it can transform the three laws of Aristotle into three equivalent theorems that, like many others, can be derived from a set of axioms. It is just an axiomatic system, as arbitrary as any other.

The quantum facts, on the other hand, are anything but arbitrary, and they demand another logic. Pay attention to this: the physical facts demand another logic.

Last but not least, you forgot to mention paraconsistent and intuitionistic logics, which are much more importantly different from Classical logic than the logics you cited. And again, the first references to those logics were made by Aristotle.
0 Replies
 
yakmunch
 
  1  
Sun 29 May, 2011 10:16 am
@mark noble,
The idea of complete nothingness existing is a contradiction.
Complete nothingness has to not exist in order to be what it is. Complete nothingness.
guigus
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2011 03:18 am
@yakmunch,
yakmunch wrote:

The idea of complete nothingness existing is a contradiction.
Complete nothingness has to not exist in order to be what it is. Complete nothingness.



So far so good.
0 Replies
 
Vijay Karippil
 
  2  
Mon 30 May, 2011 05:26 am
The space represents "nothing' and it exists.
The space provides the scope for everything.
So, Nothing is the base of everything.
Without "Nothing", there cannot be anything.
So, nothing exists!
hamilton
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2011 09:23 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

As simple as that.........DOES NOTHING EXIST???

In your opinion - does nothing exist, has it ever existed, can it ever exist?


Just tell it as you see it! All are welcome to throw it out there.

Thank you guys.
Mark...

well, only in a complete vacuum.
nothing is an opinion.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2011 11:00 am
I have said it before, and I can say it again. "Nothing" is a value or attribute of "something". Call it "negative representation" if you wish.
You can ask "does 42 kilos exist"?
It is a senseless question that means nothing unless you have something that there may be 42 kilos of. All this "philosophizing" over being and be-ing and nothingness is just word salad. This is just semantics; it does not go deeper than dictionary definitions.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2011 03:45 pm
@guigus,
Yes, there are many logics, not just classical or Aristotilian. I remember an anthropological journal many years ago with the title Ethnologics (something like that) in which ethnographers tried to map out the "logical" tacit rules informing the thinking of people in very different cultures.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  2  
Mon 30 May, 2011 06:08 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I have said it before, and I can say it again. "Nothing" is a value or attribute of "something". Call it "negative representation" if you wish.


If you didn't notice, you are trying to turn nothing into something (a representation) so as to avoid having to deal with it. But your tentative boils down to what you call a "word salad": a negative representation is just no representation---or the representation of nothing (rather than of something). Hence, it is just one particular case of the same nothingness you try to avoid---rather than its "explanation."

Cyracuz wrote:
You can ask "does 42 kilos exist"?
It is a senseless question that means nothing unless you have something that there may be 42 kilos of.


And so?

Cyracuz wrote:
All this "philosophizing" over being and be-ing and nothingness is just word salad. This is just semantics; it does not go deeper than dictionary definitions.


It is just you that are not going any deeper.

guigus
 
  2  
Mon 30 May, 2011 06:09 pm
@Vijay Karippil,
Vijay Karippil wrote:

The space represents "nothing' and it exists.
The space provides the scope for everything.
So, Nothing is the base of everything.
Without "Nothing", there cannot be anything.
So, nothing exists!


This is not philosophy, just bad physics.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Mon 30 May, 2011 06:59 pm
@guigus,
No need to take up that debate again with you guigus. I know where you stand on this. I am speaking to people with intelligence, and though your eyes happened to fall on my words you can safely disregard them as not directed at you.
0 Replies
 
 

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