Can Any Two Things Be Identical???

It is not the place from which a thing is viewed, nor the time within certain limits that effects identity... Samual Clemens and Mark twain are not identical, but equal, and the Morning Star and Evening Star are equal, the same... Perspective does not change that fact... When a thing is identical it is the same as its class... No two lines are equal, and if they were there would be no way to prove that fact conclusively, yet each are lines by definition, and so identical, and no change in length can alter that fact... Change over time is a given...Mark Twain old was Mark Twain young......

Hi All!

This thread is about two PHYSICAL objects and their relationship with one another. They are seperate objects. They can be labelled any way you choose, and in any language. What here is to be determined is whether two seperate physical objects in this universe are, with all parameters previously defined, exact with each other in EVERY way.

Kind regards!
Mark...

two hydrogen atoms are identical

north wrote:

two hydrogen atoms are identical

As much as we can observe, yes.

William

Fido wrote:

It is not the place from which a thing is viewed, nor the time within certain limits that effects identity... Samual Clemens and Mark twain are not identical, but equal, and the Morning Star and Evening Star are equal, the same... Perspective does not change that fact... When a thing is identical it is the same as its class... No two lines are equal, and if they were there would be no way to prove that fact conclusively, yet each are lines by definition, and so identical, and no change in length can alter that fact... Change over time is a given...Mark Twain old was Mark Twain young......

Sorry. I don't know the difference between "identical" and "equal". You will have to explain that. But Mark Twain and Samuel Clemens were one and the same person; and The Evening Star and The Morning Star were one an the same body. So. forgetting about "equal" and "identical" for the moment, I suppose you will agree with that. So far as I understand the term, "identical" it means, "one and the same". And, as I pointed out, Sam Clemens and Mark Twain were one and the same person, and The Evening Star and The Morning Star are one and the same body (namely, the planet Venus). So, Sam Clemens, and Mark Twain were identical; and The Evening Star and the Morning Star are identical bodies (both Venus). Therefore what you claimed was obviously true, that no two things are identical, looks more and more as if it is false (obvious or not).

No, they're not. Unless they exist in the same place, same location, and in the same dimensions, which would either be physically impossible or just be one hydrogen atom.

No, they're not. Unless they exist in the same place, same location, and in the same dimensions, which would either be physically impossible or just be one hydrogen atom.

Yes. It is a symmetry of nature that every proton are the same etc...

kennethamy wrote:

Fido wrote:

It is not the place from which a thing is viewed, nor the time within certain limits that effects identity... Samual Clemens and Mark twain are not identical, but equal, and the Morning Star and Evening Star are equal, the same... Perspective does not change that fact... When a thing is identical it is the same as its class... No two lines are equal, and if they were there would be no way to prove that fact conclusively, yet each are lines by definition, and so identical, and no change in length can alter that fact... Change over time is a given...Mark Twain old was Mark Twain young......

Sorry. I don't know the difference between "identical" and "equal". You will have to explain that. But Mark Twain and Samuel Clemens were one and the same person; and The Evening Star and The Morning Star were one an the same body. So. forgetting about "equal" and "identical" for the moment, I suppose you will agree with that. So far as I understand the term, "identical" it means, "one and the same". And, as I pointed out, Sam Clemens and Mark Twain were one and the same person, and The Evening Star and The Morning Star are one and the same body (namely, the planet Venus). So, Sam Clemens, and Mark Twain were identical; and The Evening Star and the Morning Star are identical bodies (both Venus). Therefore what you claimed was obviously true, that no two things are identical, looks more and more as if it is false (obvious or not).

If we assume that all names are unique referring names then a=b is false,
that is, only a=a is true. In this case, no two distinct names refer to the same (identical) object.
But, Mark Twain can be understood as a psuedo name, as a description of.. the author of Sam Clemens' stories. In this case (Sam Clemens) = (the author of Sam Clemens' stories) is true. That is we can say that: (Mark Twain)= (Sam Clemens), is true.

Likewise, (the first visible star in the morning) = (the first visible star in the evening) is true.
Astronomy confirmed that: (the first visible star in the morning) = Venus, and (the first star visible in the evening) = Venus, is true.

((the first visible star in the morning) = Venus & (the first visible star in the evening) = Venus) -> (the first visible star in the morning) = (the first star visible in the evening), is logically true.
Therefore,
(the first visible star in the morning) = (the first visible star in the evening), is true.
The psuedo-names "Morning Star" and "Evening Star" are not required to express this identity.

If two "things" were identical they would be the same thing.

Jeeprs, I think that identities do not exist in nature. If two "things" were identical they would be the same thing. Even two pennies are only FORMALLY the same which is to say that they are are more like each other than any other form of coin for practical purposes.
We must, for practical necessity, think in terms of classes of (formally identical) things (hence the necessity of language), but reality consists of particulars, of concrete unique events.
I dislike the term "things" when discussing matters philosophical (rigour).
Imagine that we could identify and abstract one after another all the properties of a thing, say the redness, roundness, weight, taste (for certain humans) , atomic structure, etc, etc. of an apple. When all the properties were removed would we be left with empty "thingness"? What an absurd question.