45
   

Can Any Two Things Be Identical???

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 08:54 am
@kennethamy,
What matters is that he ditched the correspondence theory of truth, and the quest for the objective definition of words. Both "truth" and "identity" are words having different meanings with respect to different "language games".
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:01 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

What matters is that he ditched the correspondence theory of truth, and the quest for the objective definition of words. Both "truth" and "identity" are words having different meanings with respect to different "language games".

But why would that matter to whether or not we should confuse "identity" with "same"? If we do confuse "identity" with "same" then I think we shouldn't do so. Don't you? (Whatever Wittgenstein thinks, or where he expresses what he thinks. Or, for that matter, what anyone thinks, or where anyone expresses what he thinks).
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:15 am
@DrDick,
DrDick wrote:

I'm just throwing this out there. With such a strict definition limited to material things in time and space there can only be two things identical if there are two (or more) realities that co-exist. What the purpose would be of having two identical realities, I have no idea. I guess there could be another one of me made up of the exact same identical atoms typing this exact same response in an alternate reality.



Hi DrDick,
Would the two realities not be in two alternate locations?
Thank you, and have a great day, sir.
Mark...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:27 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

DrDick wrote:

I'm just throwing this out there. With such a strict definition limited to material things in time and space there can only be two things identical if there are two (or more) realities that co-exist. What the purpose would be of having two identical realities, I have no idea. I guess there could be another one of me made up of the exact same identical atoms typing this exact same response in an alternate reality.



Hi DrDick,
Would the two realities not be in two alternate locations?
Thank you, and have a great day, sir.
Mark...


What's a "reality"?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:27 am
@laughoutlood,
Hi Laughoutloud.
That quote is not mine. It isn't even written in my writing style.
Have a nice day.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:30 am
@Owen phil,
Hi Owen,
Thank you for that. It is exactly as is.
Have a great day, sir.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:33 am
@engineer,
Hi Engineer,
If I threw a series of donkeys off the empire state building, they would all explode on impact, this doesn't make them identical.
Thank you though, all replies are gratefully received.
Have a great day, also.
Mark...
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:39 am
@kennethamy,
Hi Ken,
I interpret DrDick's statement as (dimensions), though I don't feel the need to redefine his terminology.
I understand what he means - That is all I need.
Thank you Ken, I like this side of you. Keep it up, sir.
Mark...
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 10:04 am
@kennethamy,
But in "real life"we don't confuse them , that's the point! It's people wearing Their "philosopher's hats" that play THAT game !
0 Replies
 
DrDick
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 10:13 am
@mark noble

I think the fun of the concept of alternate realities is that they may or may not be in the exact same location. That is the reason I tossed it out for discussion/contemplation. Given it appears the one criteria that makes x not equal x and therefore it becomes y is time/space (for solids). The only way I can see two things as identical is via an alternate reality that does in fact occupy the same time/space.

There are a huge variety of ways to play out the concept, but my proposal would treat time and space as capable of being occupied by multiple realities. The butterfly squashed in one reality has the ripple effect of changing the existence of lets say a species of birds, while the still living butterfly in another reality maintains that alternate reality. So the realities are not identical, but there could be two atoms stuck in a mountain completely identical both in location as well as time/space, therefore x = x.

If there are infinite multiple realities being played out, in theory there could then exist two realities that are exactly identical.



kennethamy
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 11:44 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi Ken,
I interpret DrDick's statement as (dimensions), though I don't feel the need to redefine his terminology.
I understand what he means - That is all I need.
Thank you Ken, I like this side of you. Keep it up, sir.
Mark...


Which dimensions are those: height, width, length? I guess you mean that you think you understand what he means. But that would be impossible unless there was something he meant.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 01:35 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

mark noble wrote:

Hi Ken,
I interpret DrDick's statement as (dimensions), though I don't feel the need to redefine his terminology.
I understand what he means - That is all I need.
Thank you Ken, I like this side of you. Keep it up, sir.
Mark...


Which dimensions are those: height, width, length? I guess you mean that you think you understand what he means. But that would be impossible unless there was something he meant.

Hi Ken,
Yes, plus the measurable scope and extent of any kind, Universal extent in this process. I guess you mean that you think that I mean that I think I understand what he means, when, in fact, I know what he means, independantly of whether you think that what you think I think what he means is somehow relative to what I think what you think what I think you think - Know what I mean?
What he meant, he meant. If you think he didn't mean anything by what he meant then maybe he meant what he meant to make you think that what he meant, he didn't mean. I think he meant what he meant because he meant me to think that he meant what he meant. Why would he say it if he didn't mean to mean it?
What has this got to do with you anyway?
And I mean what I say.
Thank you Ken, and have a great day.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
DrDick
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:05 pm
Yes, I meant what I meant. The concept of alternate realities is philisophical. It is based on the premise that time may not be linear and space may not be singular.

In another thread Mark mentioned that God chooses lottery winners and everything is predestined. He mentioned to be wary, that it is based on his definition of God.

I do not want to claim to know how Mark defines God, but for the purposes of my alternate reality scenario I will offer up that God transcends time and space, in effect God is all powerful. If Mark were to agree with this concept of God it would add to the argument that two things can be identical, not they they necessarily are.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:12 pm
@DrDick,
DrDick wrote:

Yes, I meant what I meant. The concept of alternate realities is philisophical.


Yes, I can see it must be, since it doesn't make much sense, and only (but not all) philosophical concepts don't make much sense. As the Nobelist physicists, Wolfgang Von Pauli might have put it, "It is not only not true, it isn't even false".
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:15 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:
If I threw a series of donkeys off the empire state building, they would all explode on impact, this doesn't make them identical.

If your only perception of a donkey's value was the splat it made on contact with the ground, then all donkeys are of the same to you and you perceive no difference (unless you are sorting on weight). Saying something is identical seems like a value statement. I suppose there is an empirical argument that says they must be identical down to the last atom, but in reality, something is effectively identical to me if I can perceive no difference. Show me a stack of pennies of the same year, similar wear and the same color. Mix them up and ask me to identify which is which. I wouldn't be able to do it and I wouldn't care because I consider them identical. Does it matter than they are all of very slightly different weight? Not to me if I can't perceive it.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:32 pm
@DrDick,
DrDick wrote:

If there are infinite multiple realities being played out, in theory there could then exist two realities that are exactly identical.

Hi DrDick,
Or even an infinite amount of exact identical realities? But, for the moment I am restricting this thread to the parameters earlier mentioned.
Thank you DrDick, and journey well, sir.
Mark...


Ken, You are an intelligent man. Can you not find the medium between you and us mortals?
DrDick
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:34 pm
@kennethamy,
Certainly you can be of the opinion the concept of alternate realities is beyond our senses, but many things exist that given our limited reach into the universe are unknown. Just because we as a species can't prove they exist based on our very limited capabilities does not mean they don't exist. Dark energy is a good hypothetical of something that may or may not exist. You could say that not only is dark energy not true, it isn't even false.

Do I truly believe in alternate realities? Who cares what I believe. I am simply offering up that it is hypothetically possible for there to be two identical physical items if you as an individual accept certain assumptions. If based on previous posts Mark accepts a God that transcends time and space, then there can be a physical item x exactly identical to x.

If you do not accept the assumptions and limit them to what we can prove with our pathetically limited abilities, then you are stuck with time/space and therefore there cannot be two identical items because they will be different in at least space....including donkeys that go splat.
0 Replies
 
Reyn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:36 pm
@mark noble,
Can anything be really absolutely identical in every which way?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:37 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

mark noble wrote:
If I threw a series of donkeys off the empire state building, they would all explode on impact, this doesn't make them identical.

If your only perception of a donkey's value was the splat it made on contact with the ground, then all donkeys are of the same to you and you perceive no difference (unless you are sorting on weight). Saying something is identical seems like a value statement. I suppose there is an empirical argument that says they must be identical down to the last atom, but in reality, something is effectively identical to me if I can perceive no difference. Show me a stack of pennies of the same year, similar wear and the same color. Mix them up and ask me to identify which is which. I wouldn't be able to do it and I wouldn't care because I consider them identical. Does it matter than they are all of very slightly different weight? Not to me if I can't perceive it.


But one can consider two things identical, and one can be unable to distinguish between two things, and still, the two things may not be identical. After all, you may not be able to distinguish between identical twins, nor ever care to, but how would you inability to do so, or your caring whether you did so, affect whether the twins were one and the same person or not? Obviously it wouldn't affect that in the least. Even if you were not around, the identical twins would still be twins, and not one and the same person. What you believe about the facts has nothing whatsoever to do with what those facts are.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 03:38 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

mark noble wrote:
If I threw a series of donkeys off the empire state building, they would all explode on impact, this doesn't make them identical.

If your only perception of a donkey's value was the splat it made on contact with the ground, then all donkeys are of the same to you and you perceive no difference (unless you are sorting on weight). Saying something is identical seems like a value statement. I suppose there is an empirical argument that says they must be identical down to the last atom, but in reality, something is effectively identical to me if I can perceive no difference. Show me a stack of pennies of the same year, similar wear and the same color. Mix them up and ask me to identify which is which. I wouldn't be able to do it and I wouldn't care because I consider them identical. Does it matter than they are all of very slightly different weight? Not to me if I can't perceive it.

Hi Engineer,
The thread isn't about not being able to tell pennies apart, but even if it were, they would each be in - A) a different location, or B) A different time-frame, or C) I'd swipe them all and buy my donkey a parachute.
Have a brilliant everything, always, Engineer.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
 

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