45
   

Can Any Two Things Be Identical???

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 01:10 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

Ah yes! And this is the best of all possible worlds. It is wonderful! No wars, no disease, no suffering. Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? I don't suppose you have.


But, we've arrived at El Dorado...


Is that what they call The White House nowadays?
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 01:20 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

Ah yes! And this is the best of all possible worlds. It is wonderful! No wars, no disease, no suffering. Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? I don't suppose you have.
No I haven't. Sounds good, though.

I'm sure you know how it is when someone grossly misses a guess on who you are and what you understand. Optimism and acceptance aren't identical.

I can't find a proper emoticon. Think of a smiley face.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  4  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 02:39 pm
@kennethamy,
[
kennethamy wrote:

Ah yes! And this is the best of all possible worlds. It is wonderful! No wars, no disease, no suffering.


What is your point Ken? Do you think that an absence of war, disease and suffering are the ingredients to utopia?

Does not perfection require opposing factors? I believe the balance is essential.

The White looks never whiter
Than when set against the Black
And everything moves forward
In the light of looking back

Kind regards.
mark...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 03:53 pm
Pangloss wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

Ah yes! And this is the best of all possible worlds. It is wonderful! No wars, no disease, no suffering. Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? I don't suppose you have.


But, we've arrived at El Dorado...


Watch out for Influenza...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:03 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna wrote:

Fido wrote:

Isn't it recognized that individual examples always vary from the concept/ideal???
Exactly. And so to Mark's second question: no "individual example" can be perfect. Perfection is equivalence to the ideal.

There are those who have tried to reason through the whole thing without using metaphysics. It kind of turns my brain inside-out, but I'm still reading it because it's linked to something else I want to understand.


All ideals are perfect, and it is not imperfect reality that is created out of them, but all ideals are made out of the real, and imperfect... And you see how the notion of a perfect equality has played a part in this thread...And it is so pointless since the notion of identity does not mean identical in any general sense.... When we classify something we identitfy it, and the identity is not complete, but is only essential... Cats as a class are an identity of all shared characteristics of cats, but characteristics not shared with the characteristics of all cats is what makes up a real cat... We must look for the thing in itself in the thing as itself...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:14 pm
I have had a Humanistic education from the beginning and still in many many aspects always was the first to criticize it...I don´t buy Le bon Sauvage theory of Rousseau, I am not specially interested in Voltaire and always defended the Darwinian principle of competition...now I would like to know just how does that imply or has anything to do with my concept of Perfection ?
Perhaps in your all mighty wisdom you can explain it to me Ken...


Hi Arjuna ! Glad to see you on the topic, your opinion to me is always informative and I feel that I still have allot to learn from you ! Very Happy

Hi there Mark ! Hope you find patience and will to keep up expressing your thoughts so genuinely has you usually do...that is what makes true thinking against simply editing ideas...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:16 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi Arjuna,
Thank you for joining in, by the way!

Would it also be correct to say: Every "individual example" can be perfect. Perfection is the equivalence to the ideal?

Have a brilliant day.
mark...


We conceive of the world by way of ideas/ideals which are all perfect... It is the economy car of thought because in this stripped down version we can conceive of all physical reality, where as, if we had with our ideals to contain all the imperfection in every example of our ideals, we would need libraries instead of brains, and the advantage of primitive peoples is that they used their brains because they had no libraries... Just as this traveled light in the physical sense, leaving behind all they could not carry, so they did not waste thought on mental impedimentia... Ideas/identities are not the thing, but a shorthand representation of the thing... Each contains the essence of the thing at hand, and not the thing in itself... When we say A is A, it is a given that A represents a certain , and constant value.... If we say elephant, the ideal of elephant reflects a certain, and constant meaning, but the meaning is not the thing any more than the value is the thing...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:22 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

mark noble wrote:

Hi Arjuna,
Thank you for joining in, by the way!

Would it also be correct to say: Every "individual example" can be perfect. Perfection is the equivalence to the ideal?

Have a brilliant day.
mark...


We conceive of the world by way of ideas/ideals which are all perfect... It is the economy car of thought because in this stripped down version we can conceive of all physical reality, where as, if we had with our ideals to contain all the imperfection in every example of our ideals, we would need libraries instead of brains, and the advantage of primitive peoples is that they used their brains because they had no libraries... Just as this traveled light in the physical sense, leaving behind all they could not carry, so they did not waste thought on mental impedimentia... Ideas/identities are not the thing, but a shorthand representation of the thing... Each contains the essence of the thing at hand, and not the thing in itself... When we say A is A, it is a given that A represents a certain , and constant value.... If we say elephant, the ideal of elephant reflects a certain, and constant meaning, but the meaning is not the thing any more than the value is the thing...


Well this is precisely why we should to some extent revise our idea of perfection...To be is good enough for me, and without constrains or judgement...a direct link to reality.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:25 pm
@Owen phil,
Owen phil wrote:

Wrong again.

Two different objects cannot be identical.
If (Fx and ~Fy) then ~(x=y).

Then how can two dogs both be dogs along with all other dogs when Dog is an identity.... How about two oranges.. If we could not classify on the basis of identity we could not possibly have knowledge.... Please do not confuse identity with some gross equality.... It is a specific point of concurance between elements of a class... Lines are all identical and never equal... How can this be??? Like all conceived things, they are equal by identity...
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:37 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

[
kennethamy wrote:

Ah yes! And this is the best of all possible worlds. It is wonderful! No wars, no disease, no suffering.


What is your point Ken? Do you think that an absence of war, disease and suffering are the ingredients to utopia?

Does not perfection require opposing factors? I believe the balance is essential.

The White looks never whiter
Than when set against the Black
And everything moves forward
In the light of looking back

Kind regards.
mark...


The point is that you wrote:
The universe now: it's perfect by virtue of not needing to be altered, saved, fixed, corrected.

And if you think that this world is perfect, then I wonder whether the news of the world penetrates into Wales. But do yourself a favor, and read Voltaire's Candide. Or even, just read.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:42 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I have had a Humanistic education from the beginning and still in many many aspects always was the first to criticize it...I don´t buy Le bon Sauvage theory of Rousseau, I am not specially interested in Voltaire and always defended the Darwinian principle of competition...now I would like to know just how does that imply or has anything to do with my concept of Perfection ?
Perhaps in your all mighty wisdom you can explain it to me Ken...





Haven't you read Voltaire's Candide? That is peculiar, since it was inspired by the Lisbon earthquake of 1755.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:44 pm
Classification only go so far in length, being a dog or whatever...On the contrary Reality has what exists goes all the way in length...this including our thoughts as part of our physical reality, our imagination has something that actually happens in our physical brains as also a part of reality...what else is there to compare to if we jump beyond the strict sense of words ?
In absolute terms everything is perfect and unique... an intertwined meta phenomena were the singular thing meets the plurality of existence and equals it in a dialectical meta relation to position itself in relative terms when to be specific to any of its parts. The Holistic result of that endless catalogue of relations between one thing and all the others there is makes it perfectly equal to the Whole itself and therefore not transcendeble in concept potential !

...of course some of you don´t grasp any of it...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:49 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:



...of course some of you don´t grasp any of it...


Please do count me as one of those. I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 04:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:



...of course some of you don´t grasp any of it...


Please do count me as one of those. I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.


The difference between our grasping of a concept length in relation to something that it is, (what we can achieve in conceptualizing given our human limits ) and its true limits as a Real existent thing bound to be related with the entire set...

...and make no mistake I do count you on that from always... that´s exactly the fun of it !
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 05:00 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Classification only go so far in length, being a dog or whatever...On the contrary Reality has what exists goes all the way in length...this including our thoughts as part of our physical reality, our imagination has something that actually happens in our physical brains as also a part of reality...what else is there to compare to if we jump beyond the strict sense of words ?
In absolute terms everything is perfect and unique... an intertwined meta phenomena were the singular thing meets the plurality of existence and equals it in a dialectical meta relation to position itself in relative terms when to be specific to any of its parts. The Holistic result of that endless catalogue of relations between one thing and all the others there is makes it perfectly equal to the Whole itself and therefore not transcendeble in concept potential !

...of course some of you don´t grasp any of it...

We have to classify to know, and yet we can become the prisoners of our conceptions of reality... Phenomenologically, we should expereience each thing as new, as a child, if we would have our lives as new; so the difference here seems to be between having the knowledge to survive today into tomorrow, and having this moment in all its splendor, existentially
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 05:02 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:



...of course some of you don´t grasp any of it...


Please do count me as one of those. I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.


The difference between our grasping of a concept length in relation to something that it is, (what we can achieve in conceptualizing given our human limits ) and its true limits as a Real existent thing bound to be related with the entire set...

...and make no mistake I do count you on that from always... that´s exactly the fun of it !


Are you dislexic, or only drunk???
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 05:03 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I have had a Humanistic education from the beginning and still in many many aspects always was the first to criticize it...I don´t buy Le bon Sauvage theory of Rousseau, I am not specially interested in Voltaire and always defended the Darwinian principle of competition...now I would like to know just how does that imply or has anything to do with my concept of Perfection ?
Perhaps in your all mighty wisdom you can explain it to me Ken...





Haven't you read Voltaire's Candide? That is peculiar, since it was inspired by the Lisbon earthquake of 1755.


And Pangloss was Liebniez... how amazing...
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 05:07 pm
@kennethamy,
Hi Ken,

I never wrote that. You are either confused or mistaken. And Voltaire is of no use to the living.

Kind regards.

Mark...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 05:08 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:



...of course some of you don´t grasp any of it...


Please do count me as one of those. I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.


The difference between our grasping of a concept length in relation to something that it is, (what we can achieve in conceptualizing given our human limits ) and its true limits as a Real existent thing bound to be related with the entire set...

...and make no mistake I do count you on that from always... that´s exactly the fun of it !


Are you dislexic, or only drunk???


neither, although sometimes I wish I was...why ? what´s hard to get ?

A concept is limited ultimately for the INDIVIDUAL that PRODUCES it...The thing itself as existent is bounded to the entire Reality in order to be...the entire chain makes it.

What is a dog against a cat ? or a mousse ? or an elephant ? or a spaceship ? and so on...
...now I do have a limit to what I can recall to build this differentiation of what a dog is against what it is not...but the actual thing does not have this limit !!! Is that more to your satisfaction ? Drunk
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2010 05:14 pm
@kennethamy,
Hi Ken,

Do you have an investment in "Voltaire Publications", because you are certainly trying to sell something here.

I do believe EVERYTHING to be perfect - Disaster, suffering, death, torture, cruelty, hatred............. They are all perfect, as representations of themselves.

I am not saying that they are "GOOD", I am saying that they are "PERFECT".

I don't believe in "good" and "Evil" as I've said before. I do believe in right and wrong though - But they also are subject to opinion.

Kind regards Ken.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
 

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