6
   

Any philosophers that think time is completely subjective?

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:26 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136942 wrote:
Time exists not by itself but as part of a system of concepts. All concept exists within a system of concepts. All human concepts are imposed. So even though there are qualia that concepts refer to, the concept is how we experience the qualia as unified, therefore a separation of the concept and what it refers to is not exactly logical, however justified in practical terms.


I suppose that what is a part of a system of concepts is, itself, a concept. So, either time is not part of a system of concepts (since it is not a concept itself) or it is a part of a system of concepts, and is only a concept, and therefore time does not exist, but only the concept of time exists.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:29 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136980 wrote:
I suppose that what is a part of a system of concepts is, itself, a concept. So, either time is not part of a system of concepts (since it is not a concept itself) or it is a part of a system of concepts, and is only a concept, and therefore time does not exist, but only the concept of time exists.


All things qua things exist as concept. All thinking is mediation. The concept "exist" is as difficult as the concept of "time." As Wittgenstein also showed, such distinctions are accidental, not essential.

Here's a piece of Hegel for you..
Quote:

... there is nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain both immediacy and mediation, so that these two determinations reveal themselves to be unseparated and inseparable and the opposition between them to be a nullity.
and some WItt
Quote:


6.432 How things are in the world is a matter of complete indifference
for what is higher. God does not reveal himself in the world.


6.4321 The facts all contribute only to setting the problem, not to its
solution.


6.44 It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it
exists.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:34 pm
@Zetherin,
I believe that time is the logical coordination of events. Is it not true that I wrote that last sentence before I wrote the one that I'm typing right now?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:42 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;136987 wrote:
I believe that time is the logical coordination of events. Is it not true that I wrote that last sentence before I wrote the one that I'm typing right now?


Yes, indeed. Time is an extremely useful way to organize experience conceptually. We could hardly live without such an invention. But I would still argue that time is utterly dependent upon human conceptualization. Concept first; time after.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:43 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;136987 wrote:
I believe that time is the logical coordination of events. Is it not true that I wrote that last sentence before I wrote the one that I'm typing right now?
Yes time consists of sequential moments or droplets of experience (hence of process). Time has no independent reality outside the ordering of events.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:52 pm
@prothero,
prothero;136995 wrote:
Yes time consists of sequential moments or droplets of experience (hence of process). Time has no independent reality outside the ordering of events.


Yes! And even "sequence" is already an example of time-as-concept. It's only within a system of concepts that time can exist. No memory, no past. no desire/fear/project, no future.
0 Replies
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:54 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136993 wrote:
Yes, indeed. Time is an extremely useful way to organize experience conceptually. We could hardly live without such an invention. But I would still argue that time is utterly dependent upon human conceptualization. Concept first; time after.


Should I take this as meaning that you think that everything in space is happening simultaneously?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:54 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136982 wrote:
All things qua things exist as concept. t


Then there are nothing but concepts, and no things for the concepts to be concepts of.
0 Replies
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:55 pm
@prothero,
prothero;136995 wrote:
Yes time consists of sequential moments or droplets of experience (hence of process). Time has no independent reality outside the ordering of events.


How do we know that time has no independent reality outside the ordering of events?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:56 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;137003 wrote:
Should I take this as meaning that you think that everything in space is happening simultaneously?


I just don't see how that could happen. There would not be enough time,
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 04:58 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;137003 wrote:
Should I take this as meaning that you think that everything in space is happening simultaneously?


No, because "simultaneous" only makes sense within the time-concept. All experience is mediated, conceptual. I know it's a strange thought, but I think that Hegel is right. Imagine a consciousness devoid of memory. I mean zero memory. They could not even posit/detect "change."
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 05:12 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;137008 wrote:
No, because "simultaneous" only makes sense within the time-concept. All experience is mediated, conceptual. I know it's a strange thought, but I think that Hegel is right. Imagine a consciousness devoid of memory. I mean zero memory. They could not even posit/detect "change."


Imagine a universe where there are no minds whatsoever. In that universe there would be nothing to experience or detect anything. Should that lead us to believe that all phenomena are conceptual?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 05:32 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;137017 wrote:
Imagine a universe where there are no minds whatsoever. In that universe there would be nothing to experience or detect anything. Should that lead us to believe that all phenomena are conceptual?


Yes and no. To imagine requires of course the same mind that we are trying to abstract (yank out) from the mental-model (a universe devoid of mind).

I do think that all phenomena are conceptual, to the degree that we think of them. But our experience is obviously more than thought, although always bound up in thought. Quantification-relation (to separate the "whole" into pieces, or individual objects) and quality (in the sense of qualia.)
Qualia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 05:44 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;137017 wrote:
Imagine a universe where there are no minds whatsoever. In that universe there would be nothing to experience or detect anything. Should that lead us to believe that all phenomena are conceptual?
I would say, that time is dependent on process (change) not on human perception. Human perception is a form of process and so human conceptions of time are perception dependent but time itself "occurs or exists if you prefer" with or without humans to perceive it.
0 Replies
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 06:14 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;137022 wrote:
Yes and no. To imagine requires of course the same mind that we are trying to abstract (yank out) from the mental-model (a universe devoid of mind).

I do think that all phenomena are conceptual, to the degree that we think of them. But our experience is obviously more than thought, although always bound up in thought. Quantification-relation (to separate the "whole" into pieces, or individual objects) and quality (in the sense of qualia.)
Qualia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You asked me to imagine "imagine a consciousness that was devoid of memory" and I asked you to imagine a universe without any minds. Saying that imagination requires a mind does not cancel out my point, which is that it's possible for the process that we call time to exist independent of experience.

Qualia do not exist, because the functional and dispositional properties of perception can, in fact, explain the subjective qualities of perception. The functional role of certain sorts of perceptions in a conscious system necessarily and understandably entails that the system will report qualia. Therefore there are no ineffable intrinsic subjective qualities of perception beyond its functional qualities.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 08:45 am
@ufotofu,
I don't think qualia can be reduced...nor that time is independent of concept. However, I don't mind others thinking differently. It's a good subject.

Kant thought that causality and substance were transcendental, and tied to the intuition of time. I was convinced at first but then I saw that this could all be built up from one factor, raw conceptualization. I think we learn as children to think according to time and causality....and human memory in any case is bound to be temporal.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 09:50 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;137180 wrote:
I don't think qualia can be reduced...nor that time is independent of concept.


And why don't you think that qualia can be reduced to the functional properties of perception?

I don't mind you thinking differently, but that doesn't mean that I approve of or respect your views. Idealism and conceptualism just don't hold enough water.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 04:16 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;137204 wrote:
And why don't you think that qualia can be reduced to the functional properties of perception?

I don't mind you thinking differently, but that doesn't mean that I approve of or respect your views. Idealism and conceptualism just don't hold enough water.


In my opinion, all of our distinctions are contingent, accidental. Mind/matter, self/other, etc. For practical reasons we must maintain these distinctions, but I don't think they are logically grounded. So philosophically I agree w/ Hegel, that a master concept subsuming all of these is necessary. And this concept must be self-negating, else it also becomes a superstition.

I feel that we organize qualia by means of concept, but this concept can only refer to qualia. For instance: "a rose is a rose is a rose." That sentence isn't red.

Hegel had no use for Kant's noumena. Although Hegel's system is called Absolute Idealism, this name is deceptive, for the mind-matter distinction is paradoxical. "No finite thing has genuine being," for all that is finite is mind-imposed, and the mind/matter can change.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 11:52 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;137300 wrote:
I feel that we organize qualia by means of concept, but this concept can only refer to qualia. For instance: "a rose is a rose is a rose." That sentence isn't red.


Qualia can be explained by the functional properties of perception, though. I really don't see an issue here.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 12:32 am
@hue-man,
hue-man;137418 wrote:
Qualia can be explained by the functional properties of perception, though. I really don't see an issue here.


How does one explain the color red? Not in terms of wavelengths or neurons but the redness of it? The feeling of cold, or hunger. What could it meant o explain a feeling? I don't mean in a causal sense.
 

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