Illegal Immigration, a reasonable solution?

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As we all know, the America's population of illegal immigrants is astounding. Even all the way in the mid-atlantic region, in our nation's capital, one cannot go anywhere or do anything without being reminded of this fact. No one can deny that this drastic and steady rise the the nation's population can have serious effects on the nation's economy and job market, but in order to come up with a reasonable solution . . . .we must look at it from a couple different views:

In the past, I had been completely for deportation, plain and simple. My mother was an immigrant to this country, as are many of my friends and associates, and (of course) my ancestors (my moms from england and, on my dads' side, my great grandpa came here from germany as a jewish 'refugee' and joined the army to fight the nazis, with the americans) . . but all of them came to this country legally from their countries. It annoyed me to see my mother being threatened with deportation, as soon as her card expired, when others who never even made the effort to come here through legal channels, were going about their lives buying cars, renting and buying homes, and getting jobs that my mother could not get because she was not willing to go through illegal channels to get what she needed. I, myself, cannot even get approved to finance a used car, or be approved (by myself) for an apartment . . . and I was born and raised here. Pretty frustrating! She was able to eventually re-legalize her status, thank goodness . . but not without effort. . . .this is most of what still annoys me about this topic . . . that a lot of them (but not all, by any means) have no interest in legalizing their status, and becoming a tax-paying citizen, or learning to communicate effectively with the general population (I know more people speak spanish then english here, now, but Im speak of the citizen population, of the businesses and law and medicial community, etc, etc.), outside of their own "ethnic community. Instead, they continue to live "off the grid," similar to criminals and take advantage of tax-sponsored programs (like the free clinic that they treated me like crap at, because they assumed that the white/blonde-haired/pale-eyed girl didnt really need free help.I do! my condition is quite serious. in fact).

I know that some people argue that, for example, they're only taking jobs that Americans dont want to do, but this is not entirely true. My husband, and many, many other Americans (esp younger males and african americans, and legal immigrants) are having LOTS of difficulty even finding a minimum wage work . . . and would be glad to do these "dirty jobs," as long as it puts money in their pockets, and food on the table. Some bosses take advantage of the illegal immigrants' delicate situation by only paying them pennies on the dollar . . and thereby lessening the value of the efforts of the desperate, hungry, out-of-work American. (no, i dont exaggerate this situation. I have been homeless, in the past, because both my husband and i couldnt find work or home and picked change off the streets to buy ramen and 50 cent burritos) We could not find work to save our lives or fill our bellies, and refused to resort to begging or crime, but watched groups of illegals stand on the corner in the morning, and just be given money-earning oppurtunities, without having to put any effort in the search. They hadn't filled out a single job application!!

However, I see where theyre coming from (figuratively speaking!)
This episode of this show, 30 DAYS helped in this aspect. It shows it from their view. This episode expires April 30th though, so watch it now!

http://www.hulu.com/watch/56908/30-days-immigration

After seeing this episode, the above issues still annoy me, but deportation and imprisonment, with no exceptions . . . may not be the "humane" or truly "american" solution.

While I now sympathize with their situation ... . I still believe that something must be done. The immigrants who, like the family in the show, really just came here for a better life, and to live the "American Dream" (even though I, as an american, dont even get to live it) should be given a half decent chance, but should have to do as all immigrants in the past: learn some english (they dont have to be fluent, just functionable) and some american history and civics,(and, yes, i think we should try to learn some spanish, too.) and they should find a job legallly, once they're a citizen, and have to pay taxes like the rest of us. Like I said, I pay taxes, and make minimum wage (for now) but have horrible difficulty trying to get help at the state-owned health-care center . . . while all the immigrants got treated first, but did not come first (I refer to their 'first come, first served' policy which they did not honor and kept skipping my name for theirs'. i was literally waiting for hours before they got their and watched them get treated and leave while my name was never even called) In this way, we can seperate those who truly want to be "american" from those here, for example, just to live and act like a criminal, (there's been a lot of crime in recent years, often gang or drug related, commited by these illegals) thereby making the other immigrant look band, by assumed association. Those immigrants (no matter what their country of origin) SHOULD be imprisoned and deported.

I am definitely for border control. We have closed our gates temporarily, in the past, for population and political (usually war-related) issues . . and may have to do so again, if the problem gets too much more out of hand. However, as I said . . there are those already here that do deserve a fair chance and, once our countrys' economic issues start to "level out" . . as a result of the millions of undocumented people inserting themselves into and contributing to the system (through taxes, etc.) . . . . then maybe we can open our gates with a smile and become the nation great nation we once were (i speak of the idea of america, the prinicples of our founders not the politicians. I dont trust any of them)

Your thoughts? :detective:

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@Twilight Siren,

In the context of Philosophy, this post, to me, reeks of nationalist ideology, with your continuing differentiation between "us" and "them" (check out the pink floyd song!), "ours" and theirs", "immigrant" and "American", "they" and "the rest of us"...etc.

I understand where you're coming from, but I thought that in the last couple of decades, since the fall of the Berlin wall, that we humans had considered better methods for living together on this earth, than from one meaningless side of yet another wall amidst a never ending grid of borders and walls. Besides, we have already seen that "border security" and walls are easily circumvented by "the illegals".

Hopefully someone does have a reasonable solution here; one that is realistic, humanistic, and not based on nationalism, ethnic group, or social class. As with the war on drugs, it seems the war on illegal immigration is not winnable; it's going to keep happening no matter what we do. Does this mean we throw in the towel and let it happen? Or do we change policy to manage the inevitable in some constructive, more logical fashion?

I personally don't blame the people, I blame the system. If I were living in Mexico, I'd probably come here too. I've also worked with immigrants who were at one time illegal, and who are now LEGAL, (and continue to be) hard-working, productive members of society. I'm not sure if their legal status makes any difference whatsoever in the long run, except that it has a slight negative effect on tax revenue. They are here and working, regardless.

The Mexicans are basically just coming back to their native lands. 150 years ago, the border was a couple of states farther north and east, and slowly but surely, they have returned. Smile

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@Pangloss,

Pangloss;156481 wrote:

In the context of Philosophy, this post, to me, reeks of nationalist ideology, with your continuing differentiation between "us" and "them" (check out the pink floyd song!), "ours" and theirs", "immigrant" and "American", "they" and "the rest of us"...etc.

I understand where you're coming from, but I thought that in the last couple of decades, since the fall of the Berlin wall, that we humans had considered better methods for living together on this earth, than from one meaningless side of yet another wall amidst a never ending grid of borders and walls. Besides, we have already seen that "border security" and walls are easily circumvented by "the illegals".

Hopefully someone does have a reasonable solution here; one that is realistic, humanistic, and not based on nationalism, ethnic group, or social class. As with the war on drugs, it seems the war on illegal immigration is not winnable; it's going to keep happening no matter what we do. Does this mean we throw in the towel and let it happen? Or do we change policy to manage the inevitable in some constructive, more logical fashion?

I personally don't blame the people, I blame the system. If I were living in Mexico, I'd probably come here too. I've also worked with immigrants who were at one time illegal, and who are now LEGAL, (and continue to be) hard-working, productive members of society. I'm not sure if their legal status makes any difference whatsoever in the long run, except that it has a slight negative effect on tax revenue. They are here and working, regardless.

The Mexicans are basically just coming back to their native lands. 150 years ago, the border was a couple of states farther north and east, and slowly but surely, they have returned.

You are reading into words like "us" and "them" a little too much . They're just pronouns, to prevent jumbling up my thoughts by trying to use the appropraite proper noun every time . This wouldve been an extremely long, hard-to-read post, otherwise. . In fact, I am not "nationalistic " at all. I want nothing more than be able to move to the land my family is from (england/germany/scotland). I was just watching that episode of the show, and realizing how (on topics like this) people seem to be on one extreme or the other. I'm trying to see if we can come up with something that's more balanced and "fair"

It's all about balance, and middle ground, for me.

Also, there is hardly a good comparison for two completely different countries having a controlled border between them (as almost every single "developed" country has, without being "discriminative") and something like the Berlin wall, within a then turbulent country, seperating their own people . (there seems to be more citizens "guarding" the border, than government or military officials. If they got too militant, then a comparison could be made). . Sure, it'd be nice to live in a land, where there were no countries, or walls, or anything (or govt, if you ask me, but thats a different topic). . and be just people on land, living together . . . . . but that ship has long since sailed. . . and now we must work with what is securely in place (and frankly has a slim chance of ever changing, unless something awesome happens!) . . .and try to find a reasonable way to go from there. We are dealing with "now" issues.

Judging by what you said though . . . . do you think anyone should be able to go to any country (with the world in it's present state) at any time, for any reason, with no restrictions? No borders, no walls or fences? . . . sounds to me like thats more "idealistic" than anything i said.

Besides, I also said that I dont blame them (and that theyre more like refugees, with some of their home conditions). and most people know that theyre generally very hard working. I said that their situation was being taken advantage of by employers.. . When it comes to the economic situation though, it seems that having such an enormous amount of people working, but paying no taxes, yet using tax sponsored systems, is quite a strain on the "system" (those employers carry most of the blame for this one). . . and that giving them a chance for them to be "legal" . . . would help fix a lot of related problems . . . but this is only one contributing factor to our economic "predicament" . . . . if i could get away with not paying taxes . . i would . . .but then i would be held accountable for that back tax, and be considered for legal action, and i would be straining the system as well.

I just think that if someone is so adamant about being "american" . . and not just living in america . . .then why wouldnt they (oh no, more pronouns) want to legalize their status.? . . .then theyd even be able to help their family (in their homeland) even more, and even have the option to bring them here, even if just to visit. They'd be able to at least make minimum wage (like the rest of the common working force, since you dont seem to like pronouns like "us" even when its nothing more than a language tool, used to prevent the annoying over use of proper nouns).

Im not trying to defend anything "american" . . .just looking for a balanced solution to a current "hot" issue . . no one's gonna convince the senate of anything "philosophical" . . .they dont think that way . . . . so the people (as a whole, since this is supposed to be a democracy) must come up with, and speak up for a fair "american" (referring to things like the the statue of liberty and, yes, american ideals, in this instance. I think that if a country promotes themselves a certain way (the land of oppurtunity and whatnot) then they should live up to that image .)

Maybe I posted this on the wrong forum, on the wrong site. I think this subject requires more "logic" than "philosophy" (not saying there's no logic in philosophy, so dont even bother arguing this) because it deals with a more political issue (and politicians are not philosophers, these days). . it requires action (countrywide) not just thought and reflection. Most of the nation is not philosophical and has no interest in philosophy, it's very unlikey to be handled in such a way. my apologies. :surrender:

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@Twilight Siren,

The irony about immigration is that in the not too distant future we are going to need an influx of younger workers to maintain our economy and pay all those baby boomer medicare, and social security entitlements.

A wise policy would encourage the best and the brightest of any nationality to come here, be educated and contribute to our economy. We should not be hunting for those who have come here settled and are making positive contributions. Trouble makers and those who engage in criminal activity yes by all means deport them but those who come here seeking a better life and opportunities should be given the chance to stay and to become citizens. I prefer a hard working immigrant to an American with an entitlement mentality anyday.

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@prothero,

prothero;156841 wrote:

. . . . I prefer a hard working immigrant to an American with an entitlement mentality anyday.

definitely . . it's difficult working with anyone who doesnt want or need their job . . . and treats it as such.

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Illegal Immigration, a reasonable solution?

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