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I'm starting to have a real problem with going to school

 
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 06:20 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;112134 wrote:
Yogi, think back 500 years and ask yourself what the a teenager living then would give to have the life you have. This is a golden age compared to the past.



People's expectations keep increasing, and they aren't satisfied. But that's what has driven us to this point.


Which is why yogi is brought to this internal conflict. in this information age where we can lean anything we want anywhere there is no point in going to school which make you memorize, ehem, excuse me, 'learn' things you don't need to know and not only that but people give you severe negative criticism for this unwillingness.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 05:26 PM ----------

kennethamy;112147 wrote:
But the expectation of getting the benefits of achievement without achieving, or even trying to achieve, is simply outrageous. I think that no other generations has had those expectations. As Freud said, the world is not a nursery, but up to this point, people have not thought the world is a nursery. How unreasonable of parents to have any expectations of their children!



i've read some of your earlier posts and let them go, but i really have to say this now because it is getting annoying now for all of your irrelevant comments. HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT EGO.
you spoke earlier about how a A student will not have the ego to think that he can speak to a professor without proper education. and now this. Yogi is not trying to cheat his way to "victory". He IS willing to do the work, and he is, (apparently. not to doubt, but according to your original thread) but what he is questioning is the credibility of the institution (LAUSD if you live in los angeles). Je*** Ch****!

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 05:41 PM ----------

Jebediah;112165 wrote:
Yeah, he expects to not have to work. He should realize that he has to. But it is better that we have a society where he can have that unrealistic expectation.

You expect not to have to work 10 hour days, 6 days a week, because of actions taken by the labor movement not too long ago. Perhaps the expectations of the men who led that movement were seen as outrageous. Of course, they also expected to be paid $90,000 a year to weld, which did end up being outrageous.

So the expectation to talk with a harvard prof that was mentioned is unreasonable, but other complaints may not be. I've certainly had classes with timewaster homework.


He speaks of nothing akin to "not working" he is speaking about the education system that is clearly flawed in today's world, what used to work 50 yeas ago when school was still a developing new system that worked where kills and knowledge is given to children for a brighter future which can not be obtained any other way. now the information we children can obtain far surpasses what instructors can share (not always, but possible so don't flame me on this comment i'm not being ignorant, just stating facts)

Also in this twenty first century, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING THEY DON'T WANT TO DO. I expect not to work 10 hours a day 6 days a week, of course! My father did, not us. We don't HAVE TO. People who follow the classical get BS = Get job from 30 years ago will work 10 hours a day 6 days a week, that is what they worked for, that was what they were 'educated' to do. no creativity, just repeatability.

Two things are happening currently.
1. Students who realize that they can do more than what schools entitle them to are emerging and more prominent these days because there are more options and more possibilities than ever before. We live in a more meritocratic society than ever before. what we do is what we get. and we see successes like this, Steve Jobs who build from nothing, or Al gore a vice president v.s. Bush. Who is success? Who is the winner? Who do we want to be. Going to school, winning, "succeeding" does not necessarily lead to happiness or success in this generation.
2. We students SEE graduates with BS, BA, PhD's without jobs. EVERYONE graduates UC's and colleges. and the question employers ask is, so what? and what graduates ask is, now what? parents have no clue what is going on in this age. What is happening is there is more graduates this year than all of the graduate there has been in the history of education. (and people living longer isn't helping the rotation of employees either).

So really.. lets get back to the issue of the thread and stop bashing on Yogi, it's not helping anyone.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 05:56 PM ----------

kennethamy;112379 wrote:
Chance (luck) is often (they say) the residue of design. There is also a lot of truth in the saying that genius is about 90 % effort and application. No kid adores school, but many kids go to school and beyond, and are successful. So, although there may be a little truth in what William said, I would not exaggerate the amount. You do what you have to do just because you have to do it.


Of course they are "successful" they were taught what 'success' was and constantly drowned in the concept until they become what the system needs them to be. all other bright ones are washed away into the dark with negative criticism by the society. Although there may be a little truth in what you said, I would not exaggerate the amount. You shouldn't do what you have to do just because you have to do it.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 06:01 PM ----------

memester;112409 wrote:
What I mean by "deny any amount of truth" is not to deny that any exists, but that truth contained in your statement does not limit the amount of truth that may be in William's statement, does not deny that there may be a lot, and therefore your "so" statement is a non-sequitur.


Have you taken the LSAT...? lol

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 06:09 PM ----------

Pyrrho;115425 wrote:
You have no regard for the life of Harvard professors. Do you think they should be forced to waste their time with every snot-nosed brat who wants to take up their time?

Yogi DMT, there are many things in the typical formal education that are not what they should be. There are a variety of reasons for that, which I will not presently get into, beyond observing the fact that different people have different ideas of what it should be, some of whom are morons. As for not valuing money, do you value having food to eat? A roof over your head? Like it or not, the world is presently organized around money, and you must deal with the brute facts of the world. It is what it is, with all of its flaws. If you are able to change it for the better, great. But if not, you must deal with it as it is.


There has been quite a load of posts pertaining to school = money. So I will take the burden off of DMT to state he is not correlating the lack of trust in the aptitude of current educational systems to his unwillingness to work, nor the ability to get a job.
"like it or not, the world is presently organized around money, and you must deal with the brute facts of the world. "

Yes, he understands. ...and?
oh right, now magically school is not flawed.

"there are many things in the typical formal education that are not what they should be."

..ok so now i'm confused. what is your point?

You're trying to get to the point of, "yes you don't like school, well if you don't go to school, you won't have a proficient/ sustainable job, and thus won't have food, or a roof on your head." That's great, except that DMT is saying school can't promise that anymore, which is why the problem is surfacing.

Now given these premise, is there something you can say to help us...?
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 10:53 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167636 wrote:
First off, school has in average more good than bad to offer people.

1) social interaction, may make bonds that last a lifetime, you can have friends that you may have a symbiotic relation to.
If you are a lawyer, and he is an accountee you can benefit from eachother.

2) you will learn about concepts which you can build upon, contrary a guy who have lived under a rock in some desolate primitive tribe, he will only have a ignorent view of the world, not knowing about geometry, math, verbs, history ..etc.

Such ignorent person wouldn't know how to read, thus never convey written information, nor read any information. He can't get a good job, only a paltry job ..he will in essence be a loser in a society.

3) without any basic education, you can't build upon the education with any higher education.

4) though I do agree that most stuff in school are outdated, rigid in it's teaching, that doesn't really fit reality.

Least in Denmark we are taught very advanced math which about 1% of the students will ever put to use, but we weren't taught how to fill our tax bill which all had a nessesity to do, fortunaly a few decades ago it was made a goverment task, but still there are many essential concepts we need to be taught.

4)


1. agreed. just as clubs, religious gathering, sports but campus is possibly a very potent location to have social interactions with individuals of backgrounds which exhibit extended similarities.

2. We are not talking about people who go to school and don't go to school. We are talking about the incompetence of the current educational system and its ineffectiveness in teaching these curricula and disciplines with meaning and indignation. So no, you will not learn about concepts which you can build upon when you do not trust and respect the system and institution.

3. we are talking about high school and college when we acquire enough insight and experience, and general knowledge, to make our own decisions and have our own opinion with, and in DMT's original thread he stated he has learned more on his own than he has in school. Whether this may be true or not, the fact that it "feels" this way, is sufficient enough to not want to go to one, withering away your life, just to feel miserable and powerless. It is just not worth the life.

Just because you listed 3 good and 1 bad does not mean you are correct when you state, " school has in average more good than bad to offer people." If in the future, when the majority DOES find the education system ineffective and impotent, (as we did once used to KNOW it was flat and it was in the middle, or that wind are spirits and god was real) it would only prove that all who thought that the "school does more good on average" and all which adopt the idea akin to such, are merely ... ...merely.... in harsh words, blind... wouldn't you agree on this concept? so who is to say, school is effective, when someone that is pro-school, can only come up with 3 positive contributions.

(Disclamer; i too believe school is important. At least up to high school. But I am also a firm believer that there is much, much, MUCH to be improved upon. The concept of eliminating the use of the lower half of the body in elementary school, loss of use of everything under the head in middle school, and the loss of the right brain in high school and concentrating only on the left side of the brain is a disgusting system we have made. We kill creativity, making drones who know only how to make 5 paragraph essays with thesis, proof, example, thesis, proof, example, conclusion, who only know how to look for values to plug into an equation, who only know history as a list of things that happened rather than a lesson of all of achievements, failures and concepts by humanity to improve on them to improve on ourselves. How are we supposed to accomplish anything, when THIS is our educational system???? The students are in a crisis in this era; school doesn't guarantee "success" anymore, nor education, nor money, nor happiness.
We as students see this reality, and we can't merely earn Ph.D and pass the MCAT (or LSAT, DAT, GRE, ETC. ) because 75% of the time, at the best, we will end up home with our mothers; hopeless and confused and too late. We need MORE than what the school has to offer. Creativity, insight, values, morals, meaning, vigilance, all of which school omit due to ineptitude instructors and guidelines they must follow in order to avoid being asked to stand behind the podium being asked to raise your right hand and repeat after the officer.

School does have 'something' to offer, but there are more options today than ever before, and some of us, are attracted to those open source information rather than the 1950's concept of 'must attend school for success' confinement.

Apologize for the divergence and vent, quite unnecessary and unprofessional. strongly biased and hints of emotion in this post which void of its relevance...

-hikky
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 01:36 pm
@55hikky,
55hikky;168126 wrote:
2. We are not talking about people who go to school and don't go to school. We are talking about the incompetence of the current educational system and its ineffectiveness in teaching these curricula and disciplines with meaning and indignation. So no, you will not learn about concepts which you can build upon when you do not trust and respect the system and institution.
Without any diploma, how would enter a lawyer, doctor, science faculty ..etc? You need a paper stateing that you have actually sitten and (wasted time) studying.

55hikky;168126 wrote:
3. we are talking about high school and college when we acquire enough insight and experience, and general knowledge, to make our own decisions and have our own opinion with, and in DMT's original thread he stated he has learned more on his own than he has in school. Whether this may be true or not, the fact that it "feels" this way, is sufficient enough to not want to go to one, withering away your life, just to feel miserable and powerless. It is just not worth the life.
I do indeed belive he learns more on his own, than from school, least I did so.

55hikky;168126 wrote:
Just because you listed 3 good and 1 bad does not mean you are correct when you state, " school has in average more good than bad to offer people." If in the future, when the majority DOES find the education system ineffective and impotent, (as we did once used to KNOW it was flat and it was in the middle, or that wind are spirits and god was real) it would only prove that all who thought that the "school does more good on average" and all which adopt the idea akin to such, are merely ... ...merely.... in harsh words, blind... wouldn't you agree on this concept? so who is to say, school is effective, when someone that is pro-school, can only come up with 3 positive contributions.
Delete your negativity, now that you seemingly later regret it.
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 04:38 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Life is about ho well you can follow the system. For instance, to get into college (which is supposed to be about acquiring knowledge) you have to work that system like it's your job. Half of getting into college is filling out forms required by the system, and wasting your childhood trying to follow the system the best you can. School has barely anything to do with learning anymore. It's all about formalities and going into the machine at a young and age and getting spit out all the same. You could be the best damn doctor or lawyer yet without a stupid piece of paper you'll get imprisoned for practicing such. Life is about working "the system" which is really sad. Apparently a modern dream is to go to college to get a good job so you can follow a boring day-to-day schedule until the day you die. All of our ambitions are supposed to be within the confines of the system right? All the system is designed to do is keep order and order isn't always the right way to live.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 05:05 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT;168257 wrote:
Life is about ho well you can follow the system. For instance, to get into college (which is supposed to be about acquiring knowledge) you have to work that system like it's your job. Half of getting into college is filling out forms required by the system, and wasting your childhood trying to follow the system the best you can. School has barely anything to do with learning anymore. It's all about formalities and going into the machine at a young and age and getting spit out all the same. You could be the best damn doctor or lawyer yet without a stupid piece of paper you'll get imprisoned for practicing such. Life is about working "the system" which is really sad. Apparently a modern dream is to go to college to get a good job so you can follow a boring day-to-day schedule until the day you die. All of our ambitions are supposed to be within the confines of the system right? All the system is designed to do is keep order and order isn't always the right way to live.
So speaks the doomsayer, painting everything black, O so vile and dark in mind.

No, build your own roads and pave them, found your own nation of mind, have your own ideals and horizion to set sails to.

You seem not the type that will do well serving others, when it seems that you need to make others serve you.
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 05:09 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;168263 wrote:
So speaks the doomsayer, painting everything black, O so vile and dark in mind.

No, build your own roads and pave them, found your own nation of mind, have your own ideals and horizion to set sails to.

You seem not the type that will do well serving others, when it seems that you need to make others serve you.


There's a fine line between truth and negativity
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 05:21 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT;168266 wrote:
There's a fine line between truth and negativity
Most truth is subjective, some say love is deceptive, love is cruel, love is a dead end..

Others say love is beautiful, miraclelous, life giving ..that it will conquor all.

Imo it's a matter of inner will to bend reality to your will, if you are too weak, it will consume you.
In the medival medical teaching there wasn't much relevant knowledge, at best, utterly useless idiocy that only made people more sick, than healthy, same can be said about schools on a large scale, but still it made a good foundation for modern medical knowledge, it was an eye opener, it made peple seek knowledge about the humans, seek how to identify illnesses, how to cure illnesses.

Despair not.
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 06:28 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;168169 wrote:
Without any diploma, how would enter a lawyer, doctor, science faculty ..etc? You need a paper stateing that you have actually sitten and (wasted time) studying.

I do indeed belive he learns more on his own, than from school, least I did so.

Delete your negativity, now that you seemingly later regret it.


if you want to become a lawyer, doctor, or science faculty well you know why you go to school. you go to school to become those professions. You attend to accomplish one of two criteria, get good GPA and pass the LSAT, MCAT, or DAT, etc.
The explanation requires another factor when explaining why we are both right since i over generalized and you are right, but not for the right reason, which in my opinion is not right at all, but others may disagree so I will grand you the benefit of the doubt while i make my point.

For those who wish to become a doctor, probably the easiest way is to follow the system, after all the people who became doctors, lawyers, and researchers are the ones which ultimately end up in the position of professors, so it would make sense that they would conduct the class and the system in their favor. It seems today that the whole point of the education system is to produce university professors, and not much of dancers, and artists (unless you attend specialized institutions). Get good grades, pass the appropriate test and get your certificate. you are now officially the product of the government, highly processed, artificial flavor and color. Consequently, this may be the quickest way, or may be not. It depends on individuals. I have a friend which did not attend any college or university after high school. All he did was what he loved and made some money off of it. 2 years later he had a direct admission to UCLA through the professors which was fascinated by his work and dedication. So I know it is possible, just a very fragile and risky method... the safe way, of course, is to attend school and follow what they tell you to do. The important point is that there are options and individuals which limit their options to what is given to them such as yourself which state if you want to become _____ you have to go to school. There's nothing wrong with that. The point is, NOW that is not the only option. Some few bright ideas, a little cash and a garage or closet and you can start anything. With enough passion you will get what you desired. Rather wishful and rather theoretical and impractical, but it's true... that is what we are trying to get at.

Because remember if you want to become a physician you have to take general biology, which require you to know what Echinodermata echinoida, Arthropoda, Pyrrhophyta ceratium, ginkophyta, stapes, Juglance Californica, hardy-wienberg, ALL OF THESE WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TO BECOME A DOCTOR. If you don't mind the memorization, go right on ahead, but it is just merely s statement, that we don't have to always go through this anymore.
------------------------
I do not believe I had any negativity more than i did persistence. I was merely humble in the last few sentences as a etiquette for i feared falling to the level of this conversation.

---------- Post added 05-24-2010 at 05:38 PM ----------

Yogi DMT;168257 wrote:
Life is about ho well you can follow the system. For instance, to get into college (which is supposed to be about acquiring knowledge) you have to work that system like it's your job. Half of getting into college is filling out forms required by the system, and wasting your childhood trying to follow the system the best you can. School has barely anything to do with learning anymore. It's all about formalities and going into the machine at a young and age and getting spit out all the same. You could be the best damn doctor or lawyer yet without a stupid piece of paper you'll get imprisoned for practicing such. Life is about working "the system" which is really sad. Apparently a modern dream is to go to college to get a good job so you can follow a boring day-to-day schedule until the day you die. All of our ambitions are supposed to be within the confines of the system right? All the system is designed to do is keep order and order isn't always the right way to live.



School was something built to aid the industrial age, that is why art and humanities is always at the bottom of the education hierarchy, while math and english is always on top. You go to school to learn the skill to become a worker. This concept still extends today, only that today we have replaced all work that can be done by people who go to school with computers and robots, or anyone who attends high school. the real people who make a difference, and become happy are not the ones that follow all the rules of society. it is those who listen to the rule of the self. there is not one reason in this era to do something you don't want to do.

Also remember that there is absolutely no way to be able to tailor all education to each and every individual, and everyone needs to be aware of that, so don't be so hard on "the system". they are not tyring to condemn you, they just can't do better, especially in america where, through observation, most of us is persians and latino background now a days, mixed with students which study abroad, it is difficult to teach a high level education. it is up to each and every individual. remember, it is not required by law to go to a university, it is just that for a lot of people who grow up in america who were born in the 60's to 80's to do anything about it. children of 2010 will have much better options since we will fix this pitifully impotent "system" which teach nothing and everything at the same time.

-hikky
0 Replies
 
 

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