2
   

I'm starting to have a real problem with going to school

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 12:52 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;112161 wrote:
Isn't that the story of buddha, raised in a nursery and shocked when he saw the real world? Well, I don't know enough history. But often things that we single out as a problem of our culture have been singled out by many cultures as "a problem of our culture". Materialism, for example.

It's more common these days because you don't have to be the son of a prince. But it's a negative side effect of a good thing. If you take a kid raised on blu-ray and hdtv and have him watch a vhs on an analogy, he'll complain about it, because he expects better. But having better tv technology is a good thing.

To be clear, I agree with your criticism of Yogi, but not completely with criticizing our generation.


I don't understand. What is it that Yogi thinks is better? Not to work for what you want? To be educated through osmosis? There doesn't seem to be anything different in mind, just that he doesn't want to go to school. He doesn't have to after a certain age. What is it, 16?
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 01:00 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112163 wrote:
I don't understand. What is it that Yogi thinks is better? Not to work for what you want? To be educated through osmosis? There doesn't seem to be anything different in mind, just that he doesn't want to go to school. He doesn't have to after a certain age. What is it, 16?


Yeah, he expects to not have to work. He should realize that he has to. But it is better that we have a society where he can have that unrealistic expectation.

You expect not to have to work 10 hour days, 6 days a week, because of actions taken by the labor movement not too long ago. Perhaps the expectations of the men who led that movement were seen as outrageous. Of course, they also expected to be paid $90,000 a year to weld, which did end up being outrageous.

So the expectation to talk with a harvard prof that was mentioned is unreasonable, but other complaints may not be. I've certainly had classes with timewaster homework.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 01:59 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;112165 wrote:
Yeah, he expects to not have to work. He should realize that he has to. But it is better that we have a society where he can have that unrealistic expectation.

Yes, yes it is. It is also fortunate that we have a society where some people understand how the game works (which doesn't necessarily mean surrendering to conformity and playing strictly by all the rules, by the way) who can work hard, achieve a self-defined level of success and contentment, and then see a portion of their paycheck be divvied out amongst some who honestly deserve assistance and also to those who by choice have decided not to participate in the very game that allows them to live the life they have chosen.

Jebediah;112165 wrote:
I've certainly had classes with timewaster homework.

Yes. It's great practice for the 10,000 things that lie in wait to waste your time later in life.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 02:21 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;112173 wrote:
Yes, yes it is. It is also fortunate that we have a society where some people understand how the game works (which doesn't necessarily mean surrendering to conformity and playing strictly by all the rules, by the way) who can work hard, achieve a self-defined level of success and contentment, and then see a portion of their paycheck be divvied out amongst some who honestly deserve assistance and also to those who by choice have decided not to participate in the very game that allows them to live the life they have chosen.


I don't worry about Yogi. Just because he's questioning this now doesn't mean he's going to end up being a drain on society. De_budding gave him good advice.


Quote:
Yes. It's great practice for the 10,000 things that lie in wait to waste your time later in life.


So why not assign more timewaster homework then?

"I used to go visit my grandfather, he was completely insane. Every day he would make me stand next to him in a little room, staring straight ahead for three minutes without talking. He told me it was elevator practice."--Steven Wright
0 Replies
 
de budding
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 02:27 pm
@Yogi DMT,
"the best things in life would be doing for a living something that you truly love-but thinking an education will allow you to do that just doesn't work, at least not in America."

If that is true in the USA: how sad.
If that is angst-egotistical-student-rebellion: shame on you. What, if not an education, can get you into a line of work you want to be in. Whether it be via vocational diplomas and work experience or A-levels and degrees; whether you want to be a mechanic or philosopher: Education and the pursuit of your subject is what WILL get you there.

And hay, kennethamy, let them all sit with a Harvard professor and find out they have nothing to say and far too much to prove.

Working with 'behaviourally challenged' students in a secondary/high school setting I know firsthand how frightful the 'self entitlement' issue is. Sadly, a lot of it spawns from a fear of and lack of self responsibility and ends with disappointment, the thrash of reality and a lot of applications to the armed forces. It is sad but true. Quite a substantial percentile of the students I am working with in year 11 (15/16 years old) are all ready to train for the armed forces next year. I hate it.

Aaaaand, It is so rewarding to work hard at your education as well. I was so over the moon when I got my first degree this year and don't think these guys understand how much education (higher and lower) can benefit in any career. And that is not just in regards to getting interviews, but practically, from day to day.


Anyway, to anyone who thinks they don't need/want school but want to be respected professionally for their intellectualism: No matter how profound you thoughts and insights, you risk never learning to express them, and that would be the biggest waste of all.

Regards,
Dan.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 02:35 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;112165 wrote:
Yeah, he expects to not have to work. He should realize that he has to. But it is better that we have a society where he can have that unrealistic expectation.

You expect not to have to work 10 hour days, 6 days a week, because of actions taken by the labor movement not too long ago. Perhaps the expectations of the men who led that movement were seen as outrageous. Of course, they also expected to be paid $90,000 a year to weld, which did end up being outrageous.

So the expectation to talk with a harvard prof that was mentioned is unreasonable, but other complaints may not be. I've certainly had classes with timewaster homework.


So that means that all homework should be abolished?And even if it is a good thing to have a society where it is possible to have an unrealistic expectation (is it?) does that mean that unrealistic expectations are good things? I suppose it is a good thing to live in a society where it is possible to be stupid (without being punished for it). But does that mean it is a good thing to be stupid?
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 02:46 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112191 wrote:
So that means that all homework should be abolished?And even if it is a good thing to have a society where it is possible to have an unrealistic expectation (is it?) does that mean that unrealistic expectations are good things? I suppose it is a good thing to live in a society where it is possible to be stupid (without being punished for it). But does that mean it is a good thing to be stupid?


No, I think I already clarified that I was talking about society as a whole and not yogi. I said it the unrealistic expectations were a "negative side effect". You could also say that a drug that cures a medical condition is a good thing, but the dizziness that comes with it is a bad thing. But I'm not going to criticize the drug too harshly.

Ideally homework would be actually challenging, and not a waste of time.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 03:00 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;112192 wrote:
No, I think I already clarified that I was talking about society as a whole and not yogi. I said it the unrealistic expectations were a "negative side effect". You could also say that a drug that cures a medical condition is a good thing, but the dizziness that comes with it is a bad thing. But I'm not going to criticize the drug too harshly.

Ideally homework would be actually challenging, and not a waste of time.


Don't get your point. Isn't it true that stupidity is not a good thing even it we are fortunate to live in a society where stupidity is tolerated?
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 03:48 pm
@kennethamy,
Salima: Nearly everyone in the U.S. who has a decent aptitude and is willing to work hard can find a job they enjoy at least somewhat. There is a lot of support for hardworking students from underprivileged backgrounds who want to go to a decent university, and there are many many quality universities in the U.S. Most intelligent college educated people I know have a job they enjoy at least a little bit. That being said, you might have to get more education than the average bear and really teach yourself difficult skills, but if you are smart and hardworking it will most likely happen.

On the other hand, I know a guy whos brother went to college for english, but had been working with computers all of his life and now is a head engeneer who works in high level software engineering. No formal educaiton in the subject whatsoever, yet he has an unusual aptitude for the field and is exceptionally bright. The thing is though, he worked, hard, to get into the psotion he has. He had to show that he had a great aptitude he had developed through years of self teaching and the drifve to apply it.

Now, if you go through college with no passion for anything, get a cake degree and then get a decent paying job that you hate: that is really your fault. I suppose it is possible to never have found anything whatsoever in life that you have some passion for, but it seems unlikely (especially if you are in college and have any amount of free time whatsoever) unless you are a total dullard.

That being said, some people do get screwed over now and then, but most of them recover.

Now, as far as the complaints of Yogi DMT:
Man, I hated highschool with a passion! However, I learned on my own, I practiced music and art and read what I wanted to. I did not work very hard in highschool, I got a 3.0 GPA which is far from stellar but I scored very well on my SAT and got into a decent school. All of the homwork I did was done during the morning it was due and a lot of it was never handed in at all or was late and points were deducted.

I thought that highschool was a major waste of time, I wanted to be working on composing music and doing art or philosophy. I wanted to study subjects that interested me. I did have a few points that made me dislike school: I was advanced in math and the sciences (I knew a good amount of algebra in 5th grade and was really into astronomy) when I was younger but was let down during middle school when I was basically reviewing what I already knew and lost all my passion for learning math (I hadn't yet made the realization that learning math and school do not have to go hand in hand).

All I can say is that you should tough it out until you get to college. Then you can study anything that interests you. Try to look for a college that is strong in your areas of interest either by using the US news and work report rankings (if they have a strong phd program, they will usually have a very good undergrad program) if your interests are in the hard or social sciences or if you are into art/music look at who is teaching there. If they are well established musicians/artists, that is a great school. If they have never played a show/only showed their work in the "faculty gallery"(or something equally hokey), watch out.

If you do really well in highschool, you could try to apply to Brown, where no gen eds are required, or you could look into schools with more flexible gen ed requirements like ones where you can sub in higher level (more interesting, automatically) courses for gen eds.

That being said:I am almost certain that the only meaningful conversation you would have with a Harvard prof. would be about scheduling your next semester. Once you can read their research papers, understand them fully, and have a well thought out objection or a novel comentary prepared, then go ahead and shoot one of them an email. If your ideas are good they might keep up a dialogue with you (especially if they have a very narrow subfield without many colleagues to talk to) and then you could work out the possibility of doing a PHD thesis under them (if they have enough clout in their department to get you on) because you would clearly be up to date on current research in the area.

In the meantime, be happy with the MIT opencourseware....
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 05:24 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Let's organize and pass a Pedant Tax. We'll use the money to eliminate the unfortunate apparently genetic condition known as "lack of imagination" and fund a cure for smilephobia.
0 Replies
 
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 08:24 pm
@de budding,
de_budding;112188 wrote:
"the best things in life would be doing for a living something that you truly love-but thinking an education will allow you to do that just doesn't work, at least not in America."

If that is true in the USA: how sad.
If that is angst-egotistical-student-rebellion: shame on you. What, if not an education, can get you into a line of work you want to be in. Whether it be via vocational diplomas and work experience or A-levels and degrees; whether you want to be a mechanic or philosopher: Education and the pursuit of your subject is what WILL get you there.

And hay, kennethamy, let them all sit with a Harvard professor and find out they have nothing to say and far too much to prove.

Working with 'behaviourally challenged' students in a secondary/high school setting I know firsthand how frightful the 'self entitlement' issue is. Sadly, a lot of it spawns from a fear of and lack of self responsibility and ends with disappointment, the thrash of reality and a lot of applications to the armed forces. It is sad but true. Quite a substantial percentile of the students I am working with in year 11 (15/16 years old) are all ready to train for the armed forces next year. I hate it.

Aaaaand, It is so rewarding to work hard at your education as well. I was so over the moon when I got my first degree this year and don't think these guys understand how much education (higher and lower) can benefit in any career. And that is not just in regards to getting interviews, but practically, from day to day.


Anyway, to anyone who thinks they don't need/want school but want to be respected professionally for their intellectualism: No matter how profound you thoughts and insights, you risk never learning to express them, and that would be the biggest waste of all.

Regards,
Dan.


Do you think that you have to have a conventional and "proper education" to have a passion for a specific outlet? Good workers take pride in their work and they care about how people view what they did. As long as you have a naturally desire to explore your chosen calling, you don't formal education to give you any more of an advantage to being a productive and accomplished worker.

When you say accomplishment in school are rewarding, they are, but it gives you a false sense of fulfillment. An A+ is just a letter grade it means nothing even though we think it does. How much you care about your grades reflect your values in life. To me, i feel much better after reading a book i've selected on my own than having gotten a good grade in school. Good grades are basically incentive for us and we, like mindless zombies, flow through the educational society being tricked into thinking that an A+ means something and gives are incentive to keep trying, keep studying, and keep us working hard to get that A. An A is nothing more than an F in my opinion.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 03:26 am
@Yogi DMT,
why would the harvard professor not want to speak to us the uneducated or the children? I think he would, and if not he would be missing out on something more than what we would be missing out on.

every age has its perspective and it keeps the old more in tune and in touch to speak to the young. in a sense it is the same with the educated and the uneducated. I have met a number of illiterate people now and they are often brilliant like a beginner's mind kind of thing. I taught a man to play chess-he was determined to catch on and did soon enough to beat me. I also taught him to read english numbers-he was illiterate in his own language, but of course knew math and numbers because it is necessary for daily life. most numbers here are written in english however-so he was at a disadvantage there, and had a strong incentive to learn. he mastered it quickly...

actually this is off topic, sorry. but actually you can speak to a professor for instance on this forum-there are professors here and not all of us say what we do for a living or the level of education. I see most young people will say they are students if they are. but I find I am not able to tell who is very young and who is very old or who is highly educated. I can tell who is smart and who is foolish, and I can tell who is stuffy and who has a sense of humor, and who is narrow minded and who is bigoted.

to yogi: all I can advise is to try and see through your emotions, dont let your frustration with the system cause you to reject something that could be an advantage for you in following the path you choose. first choose what you want if you can, then if education is necessary, get it. if you simply cant make up your mind, you have the option of going to school and trying to make up your mind from there. you can quit everything and take off to see the world-some kids do. but that is the hard way actually-by the time they have seen enough, assuming they live through the experience, they may come back and decide they want to go to school but it is too late and no longer an option.

---------- Post added 12-18-2009 at 02:58 PM ----------

actually, listen to zetetic-he said it best!
memester
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 07:52 am
@salima,
For what it's worth; virtually none of the students entering high school can recite multiplication tables to 12.
For many years the system has believed that drilling is unpleasant business and is to be avoided.
These kids have been handicapped by our soicety, which has been protecting them from what doesn't even necessarily have to be unpleasant...protecting them just in case it's not pleasant.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 07:58 am
@Yogi DMT,
Many of you are missing what young Yogi is saying and the frustration he is going through. The grading system sucks. It breeds a competitive nature that is not in the best interest of the world at large and only serves to benefit a few who have a need for the brilliance the young mind had to offer and the BUY THAT MIND and drain it to incompetency.

Every single human being has something they can do well and so very, very many are not, I say NOT, recognized for that fact nor are they compensated for it in such a manner in which they don't have to worry about where their next meal is going to come from or losing their home, having shoes on their feet and the small recognition we all need that says "job well done"; now matter what that job may be! There used to be a term in this country known as CUSTOM MADE; not such term exists anymore. Made by hand by craftsmen. What a shame.

Many do not have the communication skills to communicate what it is they are capable of and why observation is so very important. Many can show you but few can express in words what that is.

Sure there are different educational facilities out there and scholarships do exists but many are truly strapped when the do not excel, but are proficient enough in whatever they are naturally qualified for to become better. Many of these young people are falling by the wayside with skills to offer and reach a frustration express by yogi and seemingly give up at trying to find a lot in life that will allow them to be happy and fulfilled.

I may be wrong in my assessment, but that is how I see it. There are so many examples I could go into but I hope what I had offered will do for the present. Our educational system is in dire need of repair and have voiced my views on more than one occasion.

Many of you defend the educational system and perhaps you are among the lucky ones who found in it the slot that was provide by it to expand your natural abilities. Wonderful, you are blessed and be thankful for that. But I am afraid you are in a vast minority as to those who are not so lucky.

William
memester
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 08:28 am
@William,
There's a lot of truth to what you are saying, William.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 10:24 am
@memester,
memester;112356 wrote:
There's a lot of truth to what you are saying, William.




Chance (luck) is often (they say) the residue of design. There is also a lot of truth in the saying that genius is about 90 % effort and application. No kid adores school, but many kids go to school and beyond, and are successful. So, although there may be a little truth in what William said, I would not exaggerate the amount. You do what you have to do just because you have to do it.
de budding
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 11:17 am
@Yogi DMT,
"As long as you have a naturally desire to explore your chosen calling, you don't formal education to give you any more of an advantage to being a productive and accomplished worker."

Tell me: what is your chosen calling? I worry that you lower your expectations and aspire to less than your potential because you fear failure.
You curse grades make negative value judgments of the system because it worries you. Let 'the system' compliment you, you've certainly proved you have the intelligence and spark for it by joining a philosophy system. You should do grand in further education, exploring your chosen calling professionally.

So, what is your chosen calling? And what kind of grades do you get? How could school be easier for you and how can we help?

And please, don't hate A's because they worry you. Your right, grades (or any other form of intelligence test) can't measure wisdom, potential, creativity or 'natural desire', but they do measure knowledge; prove your ability to work formally; and show that you can articulate & transmit what you do know. All things any one should want.

Dan.
0 Replies
 
memester
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 11:29 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112379 wrote:
Chance (luck) is often (they say) the residue of design. There is also a lot of truth in the saying that genius is about 90 % effort and application. No kid adores school
I think this is a false statement. Some kids very much enjoy school. Could say they love it.

Quote:
but many kids go to school and beyond, and are successful.
Of course. Many kids go to school and are successful many kids do not go to school and are successful.

Quote:
So, although there may be a little truth in what William said, I would not exaggerate the amount.
Your conclusion is not supported by what you said, though. Because there is some truth in your statement, and some in William's statement, does not deny any amount of truth in either. Nor is there plausible reason to say that exaggeration is not good, as if you have shown that exaggeration was done.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 11:38 am
@memester,
memester;112395 wrote:

Your conclusion is not supported by what you said, though. Because there is some truth in your statement, and some in William's statement, does not deny any amount of truth in either. Nor is there plausible reason to say that exaggeration is not good, as if you have shown that exaggeration was done.



I did not deny any amount of truth in W's statement. I just said that we should not exaggerate the amount. Indeed, that implies I thought there was some truth in W's statement, although not a lot. Neither did I say that exaggeration was not good, although I have explained about a billion times why I thought exaggeration was the very worst thing in the entire universe.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 12:32 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT;112269 wrote:
Do you think that you have to have a conventional and "proper education" to have a passion for a specific outlet? Good workers take pride in their work and they care about how people view what they did. As long as you have a naturally desire to explore your chosen calling, you don't formal education to give you any more of an advantage to being a productive and accomplished worker.


This may be true. However, I know from personal experience that taking advantage of what the educational system does have to offer can provide you with an excellent set of tools to help you win your personal wars.

I think Maynard would agree. Maynard James Keenan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can sit back and complain about how unfair it all is, or you can be a warrior. There are no guarantees how your life will turn out regardless of how you behave or what you do.

If you fail, wouldn't you rather go down fighting, rather than whimpering about how unjustly you were treated and whining about how things ought to be?
 

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