2
   

I'm starting to have a real problem with going to school

 
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:10 am
@Yogi DMT,
Yogi DMT;117551 wrote:
But your normal everyday guy is judged by his car, his house, etc. I don't think anyone thinks fondly of the homeless. Success today is measured by money, unfortunately.


So what?

Once you stop concerning yourself with how society measures you, and
focus instead on finding your own measure of success, life gets much
easier. Perhaps you still care what other people think.

The flaw in Tyler Durden's quote is that no one makes you own the things that end up owning you.
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 09:39 pm
@Yogi DMT,
I wish we could live in a bubble where, as long as you don't care what anybody thinks, you can live in a shitty society.

This society is shitty. This society is materialistic, shallow, immature, and ignorant.

I'm sure you can cite examples to the contrary, and I applaud you, I really do...

But with a capitalist (sorta) democracy (sorta) the majority rules. Most people are ignorant, so most media is ignorant. Most people are meaningless, so most things are meaningless.

We have created this society, and we have let others exploit it, and by our "consumer choice" we keep asking for more shallow, meaningless **** to buy / watch / do.

I wish I could be like some of you happy campers in this thread, with a smile on your face because you can happily stroll down the street while, at the same time...

Our educational system is ****. Our government is ****. Our media is ****. Our electorate is ****. Our economy is ****.

But, who cares, right? That's just the way it is, and I'm sure, if I wanted, I could succeed in the system. Just as I am sure YogiDMT could.

But I don't want to. I think this society is extremely immature and materialistic - and I don't want to play that game.
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 09:40 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;117743 wrote:
So what?

Once you stop concerning yourself with how society measures you, and
focus instead on finding your own measure of success, life gets much
easier. Perhaps you still care what other people think.

The flaw in Tyler Durden's quote is that no one makes you own the things that end up owning you.


It's not a flaw, but what you say is true. It is very rare that you do not own anything though. It's a great quote and has legitimate value. What you own, in the end has a hold on you, sadly.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 10:22 pm
@Yogi DMT,
TickTockMan;117743 wrote:
So what?

Once you stop concerning yourself with how society measures you, and
focus instead on finding your own measure of success, life gets much
easier. Perhaps you still care what other people think.

The flaw in Tyler Durden's quote is that no one makes you own the things that end up owning you.


Exactly...tv's and cars may not bring happiness, but having them doesn't make you unhappy.

bmcreider;117999 wrote:
I wish we could live in a bubble where, as long as you don't care what anybody thinks, you can live in a shitty society.

This society is shitty. This society is materialistic, shallow, immature, and ignorant.


No, you're just a pessimist.

Yogi DMT;118001 wrote:
It's not a flaw, but what you say is true. It is very rare that you do not own anything though. It's a great quote and has legitimate value. What you own, in the end has a hold on you, sadly.


If you were to live an ascetic lifestyle then your ascetism would own you. Objects can't own you--only your mental attachment to them. The people who pursue an "anti-consumerist" lifestyle are usually well off financially, proof that the things you own don't own you.
0 Replies
 
de budding
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 02:33 am
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;117999 wrote:
Our educational system is ****. Our government is ****. Our media is ****. Our electorate is ****. Our economy is ****.


What are you measuring against to reach these conclusions?
And you sound so ignorant writing like that; writing as if there are such clear ideals for the above institutions to reach.
Granted there is a lot of error and imperfection, but you are just being difficult.

Dan.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 10:09 am
@Yogi DMT,
I was in quite a pessimistic mood yesterday, so I apologize.

Sure, those institutions could be worse, or non existent, and we should be amazed that a bunch of talking monkeys have kept it going this long.

But, I am afraid some civil pessimism is needed for any of those institutions. Without that pessimism, as you'd say, what keeps it in check? Education is bad. We spend over $6,000 a student, a year, on average - and I think it's only getting worse. College costs a fortune, and by my accounts of my attendance, undergraduate classes are a lot like 13th grade. Kids are seemingly more and more immature, refusing to grow up.

The government, and it's spending, comprise 40% of the economy. We have trillions of dollars in debt, and the average American's share of that debt is around $36,000 IIRC. A year or so ago we spent nearly a trillion dollars for economic stimulus, and every state but South Dakota IIRC lost jobs by the thousands. What was the point?

We're still in a war in Iraq, that had nothing to do with 9/11. We're still in Afghanistan, as well. Every modern president has sent troops somewhere, to some part of the world.

The government has many, many, many things wrong with it. Things that are obviously wrong, that could be remedied.

The electorate is bad because they fall prey to the polarization of the issues and parties that the mass media exploit. They want you to be divided, to be a shallow lefty or righty, Democrat or Republican. Watching cable news will make you want to stab yourself in the eye. How can you look at someone like Sean Hannity, and what he says, and what's deemed "news" by any of these media titans - and not think that's a problem?

Why does education never come up as an issue to be discussed in politics? Public, compulsory education was born out of questionable motives in this country, and by just a simple literacy measure, it has failed - with 12 years of education mandatory. There is no school choice, and parents never really fight for it. Public education, like any government job, is almost a job you can't lose. Teacher's unions make it very hard to get fired, and they are very resistant to change from the status quo.

But how is that good for children? Profit as a motive, and the only motive, and that "everyone's gotta eat" mentality - plus apathy, have let the education system get to where it is unchecked. It has let government grow to outrageous levels and chip away at our liberties. Book sales are horrible, partly because some people can't read, but mostly because people don't have the attention span or imagination for it anymore. I go to a library or Barnes and Noble, and the three people in there are looking at Twilight, or celebrity gossip.

Oh, and I guess I forgot about our economy, but it's unsustainable. It's way too dependent on fossil fuels, and useless overabundance of products. There's a billion starbucks, there's months and months of inventory of (crappy) GM vehicles. Speaking of GM, and Chrysler, what kind of capitalist economy has any business that is "too big to fail"? How does that work? What happened to creative destruction? And what tax payer WANTED to spend their children's money to bail out a crappy car company - or two. Or a bunch of banks? Speaking of the banks, a lot of former executives either got out nicely, or they now work in Obama's administration. Kind of peculiar. We also have tax cheats dictating tax policy. Tax policy is another thing that kills our economy.

So there's my reason for pessimism. And to look at all that, and just try to keep a smile on your face and forget about it, to me, is irresponsible. Something should be done about that, because if not, the natural entropy of it all will continue - and it will just get worse.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 10:18 am
@Yogi DMT,
bmcreider wrote:

So there's my reason for pessimism. And to look at all that, and just try to keep a smile on your face and forget about it, to me, is irresponsible. Something should be done about that, because if not, the natural entropy of it all will continue - and it will just get worse.


So, what are your ideas on improvement? Recognizing the problems isn't where you will find your sense of responsibility, providing solutions is. But your self-righteousness may have confused you.

Also, do you think that there are any positive things about the way things are, or are these sorts of things hard for you to acknowledge? This may be a sign of pessimism, some forms of paranoia, or depression.

What do you think?
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 10:29 am
@Yogi DMT,
I have many ideas for improvement, but in that post I wasn't asked for them. I realize that I come off as self righteous, or pessimistic - but it's probably been instilled after most people I know IRL being apathetic...so I try and try to get more dramatic, to no avail.

Anywho...

I think if you let parents pick where they wanted their kids to go to school, and the government didn't have a monopoly on education, that things would improve. I'd hope. I think education is where all these problems are reborn, or the apathy that lets them continue.

IE: Our children are developing their minds in a government run institution. If you made that place more focused on their learning, rather than following rules and memorizing - then maybe the rest would follow. I don't think a truly intelligent child is going to want to sit in front of a TV for 6 or 7 hours a day and instill that as an adult habit. I don't think that kid would use the internet just to play games.

Eventually, I'd hope, kids would learn to think at a higher level then they do now, and society would just start becoming more "thoughtful" in a way with each new generation. Thoughtful, intelligent, and empathetic people aren't going to jump on the war train so easy - they also won't bail out companies so easy. They wouldn't put up with the Patriot Act, either.

One of my ideas to help the economy, and in a way government, would be the fair tax. I am not as learned on the matter as I was around election time, but I do believe it would bring needed openness and honesty to our tax policy. It would also encourage you to make money, and then save it - rather than the opposite.

But I do believe all this has to start at the root, and the root of our society is children and their developing minds. We should do all we can to help those minds grow, and the rest would follow I think. That's why we're all here in the first place, right? Because we have the "mind" to think about "philosophical" matters?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 10:30 am
@Yogi DMT,
I very much suggest that Yogi read, Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. This book explores the world of people who work in low-paying jobs. It is both entertaining, and a real revelation. In fact, I highly recommend it to everyone.
0 Replies
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 12:01 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;117999 wrote:
I wish we could live in a bubble where, as long as you don't care what anybody thinks, you can live in a shitty society.
Oh I care what people think. I just don't care what they think about what I drive, what I wear, or how much money I make. How society measures me is very little concern to me in my day to day activities. Why should I care? It's not like (to paraphrase Jim Morrison) any of us are going to get out of here alive.

Yogi DMT;118001 wrote:
It's not a flaw, but what you say is true. It is very rare that you do not own anything though. It's a great quote and has legitimate value. What you own, in the end has a hold on you, sadly.

Not really. In the end, you die, and the things you own are picked up by someone else.
The things I own, I own because they make my time here more enjoyable. Why is that a problem? Again, to pull a quote from the same film, "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."
But as far as ownership goes, do your attitudes and beliefs not own you just as much as material goods? Perhaps even more so, as material goods are far easier to cast off than beliefs.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 12:08 pm
@Yogi DMT,
TickTockMan wrote:

Oh I care what people think. I just don't care what they think about what I drive, what I wear, or how much money I make. How society measures me is very little concern to me in my day to day activities. Why should I care? It's not like (to paraphrase Jim Morrison) any of us are going to get out of here alive.


Why shouldn't you care? Is it wrong to care?

I think too often people place themselves on pedastals, declaring that what others care about is superficial and meaningless, and that what they care about is substantial and ought to be cared about.
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 12:21 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Zetherin, just to let you know, I do value your insight. I do find me placing myself on a pedestal, as you say, sometimes. I try to prevent it, but that is almost the exact problem I am talking about.

The people smart enough and immoral enough to attain power are not kept in check. And, for similar psychological, or whatever, reasons - most of my peers and work colleagues are completely apathetic, and seemingly happy with just television companionship, and thus cannot "correct" me if I am wrong, because they do not know or care about the subject matter.

I wonder if that made any sense? But I think we should care what other people think, I think that's a moral issue. But - we should have a rational, reasoned thought process too. So, like TickTock is saying, if someone doesn't like his car because it's a Kia, not a Jag, he should be dismissive of such thoughts as they aren't based in reason.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 12:57 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;118228 wrote:
So, like TickTock is saying, if someone doesn't like his car because it's a Kia, not a Jag, he should be dismissive of such thoughts as they aren't based in reason.


Aren't some cars better than others?
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:01 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;118224 wrote:
Why shouldn't you care? Is it wrong to care?

I think too often people place themselves on pedastals, declaring that what others care about is superficial and meaningless, and that what they care about is substantial and ought to be cared about.


Right you are. Caring is not the issue. The issue, I think, is when people begin to identify themselves with their possessions, and to measure the value of others, as human beings, with the same yardstick.

Strangely, the converse also seems true.

Not caring in the sense I am using it, of course, has nothing to do with a lack of empathy for my fellow man.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:03 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;118240 wrote:
Aren't some cars better than others?



Sorry I should have clarified that I meant if he, as a person, was judged based on what car he had - that would be unreasonable.

If his car is judged, but independently of the owner, then that is normal.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:05 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;118240 wrote:
Aren't some cars better than others?


Better for what?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:06 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;118243 wrote:
Sorry I should have clarified that I meant if he, as a person, was judged based on what car he had - that would be unreasonable.

If his car is judged, but independently of the owner, then that is normal.


Thanks. But judged how based on what car he had? If you mean morally, or intellectually, or as a prospective son-in-law, or as a husband?
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:11 pm
@Yogi DMT,
Intellectually judged, judged on confidence and/or ability, judged on sexual prowess, even...

All wrong. Judging someone based on their car is just as immoral, and useless, as judging someone based on their toaster.

And I'm a car guy - and I do it inadvertently all the time. But I don't take myself seriously.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:29 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;118246 wrote:
judged on sexual prowess, even...

All wrong.


. . . So the guy driving the monster truck might not actually be compensating for other shortcomings?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 01:35 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;118252 wrote:
. . . So the guy driving the monster truck might not actually be compensating for other shortcomings?


No. He might just need the job.
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
morals and ethics, how are they different? - Question by existential potential
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/27/2020 at 12:01:01