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Capitalism Will Bring World Peace

 
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 10:34 am
@EmperorNero,
Uhmmm ..that Alfred Nobel dude who invented dynamite claimed it would bring world peace? ..or something.

Iirc the atomic bomb, also was claimed to bring world peace.

I think the claim about world peace is farfetched, it ignores the superpowers arrogance, which always gives a tyrranic and paranoid behaviour.
0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 07:45 pm
@Gracee,
Gracee;135843 wrote:
I'm currently reading this book, and i think its brilliant with regards to globalisation in terms of business and economics, but not so much in politics. This claim was also the basis of Fukuyama's book 'The End of History', however his hypothesis has been proven quite flawed. It is true that in the West we have found peace and stability among ourselves, and that the liklihood of war breaking out again in Europe is next to nothing. But the fact is, that countries such as China and Russia have managed to integrate an open market capitalist system into a closed political system, with thoroughly different values to the West. Though the West may have renounced the power politics of the 19th and 20th centuries, the new great powers - China and Russia - have yet to do so. Therefore there is always the possibility of war with China and/or Russia arising from a 21st century Sarajevo.


I challenge that claim. The western powers no longer play power politics against one another - because one of the western powers (Britain + U.S.) has triumphed and become the hegemon which directs the energies of all the western nations for its own purposes - but the west as a whole, led from New York/London definately plays power politics in competition with non-western powers: e.g. Russia and China.

Quote:
And then there is Africa; which seems to be moving further and further away form capitalism and democracy in some places, and in which war is still a part of day to day life. This huge continent is so often forgotten in our analysis of world politics, and although it may not have much power, it is still a huge land mass with a large proportion of the global population.

Overall, I think it would be wise to save the unrestrained optimism about the future for centuries in which democracy and capitalism have taken hold in almost every state, and all of the most powerful ones. Until then, though we can still have hope for a better future, focus should still be on managing the minefield which is 21st century power politics.


I agree absolutely with your rejection of Fukuyama's bold thesis. History is far from over. However, one might say that western history was concluded when the last non-english great power was broken and sublimated into the anglo-american world order in 1945. Since then, history has consisted of the western power block consolidating its power in the former colonial regions: Africa, S. America, Asia, etc. Russia was gradually bled out through two world wars and a long war, and is now a shadow of its former self. China is rising in importance, but has yet to shake itself free of dependence on western economies. Either those last bastions of non-western power will succumb to anglo-american soft power, or fate has in store for humanity another world war.

I think the West is virtually assured of victory over these rivals, unless 1) China manages, in cooperation with Russia, to create overland energy corridors to the M.E. that eliminate dependence on imports by sea, or 2) China manages to create a blue water navy that would be able to challenge Anglo-American naval supremacy and ensure the continued flow of those same resources by sea, even in the event of general war.

As Niel Ferguson has astutely pointed out, these tensions very much resemble those which held between Germany and Britain in the early 20th century. It became neccessary for rapidly industrializing Germany to find for itself a secure source of oil that couldn't be affected by British naval supremacy (the Berlin-Baghdad railway) in the event of war, or to build a blue water navy that could challenge that supremacy.

The series of wars in the Balkans that preceeded the Great War were arguabley instigated by Britain to prevent Germany from completing that stretch of the rail line. The epic failure of Galipoli and the massive diversion of resources (over 1 million men) to fight the relatively weak and insignificant Ottoman Empire were largely motivated by a desire to seize the rail line and ensure that it would never rise again; the post-war division of the middle east into British and French protectorates ensured exclusive access for the Anglo-American powers to that newly important region of the world, which privilage has been maintained up to this day.

Zbigniew Brzezinksi - in his 1997 book The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives - labelled Transcaucasia/C. Asia the 'global balkans,' a region of unparalelled strategic importance, which could well serve as the source of the next global war, as the European Balkans did with the Great War. What has occured since 1997? The U.S. has conquered and installed puppet regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, while moving toward much closer and/or more formal alliance with Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Uzebekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikstan, and Kyrgyzstan. The U.S. and its allies are building several energy corridors through those newly conquered or pacified territories, while simulteineously building military alliances with the former soviet states of Europe (Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Romania, Ukraine, etc.) and arming Taiwan. Iran is the great remaining obstacle to western energy security, while also the linchpin for Chinese energy security.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:23 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;137136 wrote:
xris,


Okay, I want to continue with this thought xris. It seems you agree with the above description of your base views. Is that accurate?

The reason I ask is that the more I think about it, the more I feel we want the same. I too think that the greatest evil is, to put it in your words, "the strong exerting their power over the weak". I too think the main reason for evils in the world are foolish and immoral choices, and that a better morality has to solve it.
But for some reason we disagree about everything politically. I think that has to do with how we apply those same principles.
The difference in our opinions is that you see controlling greed and protecting the vulnerable as an act against freedom. I think we need laws governing commerce and governments , you dont. Morality has to guide our views, so why should greed be permitted?
jimkass
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:22 pm
@xris,
xris;140666 wrote:
The difference in our opinions is that you see controlling greed and protecting the vulnerable as an act against freedom. I think we need laws governing commerce and governments , you dont. Morality has to guide our views, so why should greed be permitted?


By what right do you presume to limit the amount of money a person acquires by creating wealth ?

You certainly can claim the right to limit coercive actions on his part, but that is irrelevant to the amount of wealth involved.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 04:15 pm
@xris,
xris;140666 wrote:
The difference in our opinions is that you see controlling greed and protecting the vulnerable as an act against freedom. I think we need laws governing commerce and governments , you dont. Morality has to guide our views, so why should greed be permitted?


I think the difference between our views, at the most basic level, is that you see human nature as malleable, that self-interested behavior can be reduced by the proper social environment. While I see that as impossible. So for example you would say that someones greed can be molded, and therefore control is worth it. I say that it is impossible to change someones greed, and the attempt is only producing negative incentives.
Is that accurate? Could you be convinced that the other view more accurately describes how human nature works?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 04:33 am
@jimkass,
jimkass;140689 wrote:
By what right do you presume to limit the amount of money a person acquires by creating wealth ?

You certainly can claim the right to limit coercive actions on his part, but that is irrelevant to the amount of wealth involved.
Im not certain you understand my understanding of controlling greed. If it is obtained ethically without causing hardship for others then I have no objections. I might create a society where the individual is unable to maintain that hold of the market or is in inhibited by certain laws.

---------- Post added 03-18-2010 at 05:45 AM ----------

EmperorNero;140710 wrote:
I think the difference between our views, at the most basic level, is that you see human nature as malleable, that self-interested behavior can be reduced by the proper social environment. While I see that as impossible. So for example you would say that someones greed can be molded, and therefore control is worth it. I say that it is impossible to change someones greed, and the attempt is only producing negative incentives.
Is that accurate? Could you be convinced that the other view more accurately describes how human nature works?
I don't think you can dictate morality but you can legislate for the abuse of power. Take land ownership in England , it has been in the hands of about 5% of the same people who won it in battle over a thousand years ago. They have the right to own this land, this England, but have they the right to control the lives of those who live on it?

Take monopolies should they control the free market by exploiting their market strangle hold?

Then theirs the lobbyists and government collusion, should the rich corporate bodies have more say in government than academic opinion.

We have learnt that the market alone has not the ability to control these excesses , we have to legislate against them.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 05:41 am
@xris,
xris;140845 wrote:
Im not certain you understand my understanding of controlling greed. If it is obtained ethically without causing hardship for others then I have no objections. I might create a society where the individual is unable to maintain that hold of the market or is in inhibited by certain laws.

---------- Post added 03-18-2010 at 05:45 AM ----------

I don't think you can dictate morality but you can legislate for the abuse of power. Take land ownership in England , it has been in the hands of about 5% of the same people who won it in battle over a thousand years ago. They have the right to own this land, this England, but have they the right to control the lives of those who live on it?

Take monopolies should they control the free market by exploiting their market strangle hold?

Then theirs the lobbyists and government collusion, should the rich corporate bodies have more say in government than academic opinion.

We have learnt that the market alone has not the ability to control these excesses , we have to legislate against them.


:shifty: may-be change House of Lords back to the Barons of the Kingdoms:detective:
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 05:52 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;140855 wrote:
:shifty: may-be change House of Lords back to the Barons of the Kingdoms:detective:
We have only just got rid of them, I dont want them back.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:00 am
@xris,
xris;140858 wrote:
We have only just got rid of them, I dont want them back.


:bigsmile:Maybe a House of Ladies &
Gentle Man man-Laughing:lol:dated by constituency ?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:05 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;140859 wrote:
:bigsmile:Maybe a House of Ladies &
Gentle Man man-Laughing:lol:dated by constituency ?

Now thats my kind of house.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:27 am
@xris,
xris;140845 wrote:
I don't think you can dictate morality but you can legislate for the abuse of power.


Hi xris, thanks for responding.

You don't think it is possible to dictate morality? You just want to "legislate for the abuse of power" (i.e. for immorality). Isn't that the same as saying you want to change peoples morality for the better?
But the important thing is that you think that bad things happen because of immorality (i.e. "greed" or "abuse of power"), and not just because the world is imperfect. Therefore the way to solve societies problems is to get people to be more moral.
We should set up a system that changes peoples morality with the proper 'inspiration'; the proper social environment. It aims to create a system that changes peoples morality, instead of setting up a system that deals with a given morality of people.
So, yes, you must believe it is possible to change peoples morality.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:56 pm
@EmperorNero,
Great idea but human nature is not yet that advanced. I know myself and without controls my natural desire to succeed would lead me to make immoral choices. If I could destroy our business opposition , I would. We have to accept our own weaknesses and legislate against them. Morality rises above the individual, we hope. Order and respect. Our means may be different Nero but our desires are similar.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 01:23 pm
@EmperorNero,
Yes, humanity is not advanced enough, that's what I was looking for. Then you would agree societal (and personal) problems are created by foolish and immoral choices. And advancing our morality/rationality is the way to make things better. This implies that view human nature can be advanced.
Just tell me that this is an accurate description of how you see the world, so I can continue with what I'm getting at. :shifty:
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 01:52 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;140989 wrote:
Yes, humanity is not advanced enough, that's what I was looking for. Then you would agree societal (and personal) problems are created by foolish and immoral choices. And advancing our morality/rationality is the way to make things better. This implies that view human nature can be advanced.
Just tell me that this is an accurate description of how you see the world, so I can continue with what I'm getting at. :shifty:
I'm never really sure about our moral evolution. Im not sure if it is not just a shift in power. I will grant you that certain ethical questions have been asked and we have acted on them. Child prostitution was never acceptable but it has become less visible as society progresses. Slavery a hardship suffered by more now than ever in historical terms:perplexed: Is it facade, we invent or are we really advancing? I have seen racialism and I believe we have ceased using it openly but does it still hide its ugly face? YES society has moved ever so slightly towards moral obligations..YES..
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 02:22 pm
@EmperorNero,
Should I be able to convince you that there is no such thing as a moral/rational evolution. Would you then have to accept that human nature is not improvable by the proper social environment. And therefore that all measures that seek to improve greed are bound to be fruitless. And therefore that the best way to organize society is not to try to change humans, but to set up a system that deals with their flaws.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 03:08 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;141022 wrote:
Should I be able to convince you that there is no such thing as a moral/rational evolution. Would you then have to accept that human nature is not improvable by the proper social environment. And therefore that all measures that seek to improve greed are bound to be fruitless. And therefore that the best way to organize society is not to try to change humans, but to set up a system that deals with their flaws.
With trepidation I agree to your attempt. Beware, you dont snag your net as a hungry social animal is lurking to pounce.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:55 pm
@EmperorNero,
I would like to start with this, to see how you respond. Let your response flow freely...

Has humanity moved towards moral obligations? Or is, for example, the abolishment of slavery a luxury that we can afford because we are rich because of technological progress? I would argue that it's not a change in morality or rationality that has caused this improvement, but a change in incentives. We have our material needs met, therefore we can move on to wanting the content feeling of not supporting slavery. We benefit more from not having slavery than from having it. Meaning we are still led by our personal benefit, or greed. We are still selfish. Just that now this greed is better served by promoting something good instead of something evil.
This implies that there has not been a moral evolution and we are not more enlightened.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 01:05 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;141022 wrote:
Should I be able to convince you that there is no such thing as a moral/rational evolution. Would you then have to accept that human nature is not improvable by the proper social environment. And therefore that all measures that seek to improve greed are bound to be fruitless. And therefore that the best way to organize society is not to try to change humans, but to set up a system that deals with their flaws.


0 Replies
 
Rwa001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 01:08 pm
@EmperorNero,
Quote:
Should I be able to convince you that there is no such thing as a moral/rational evolution. Would you then have to accept that human nature is not improvable by the proper social environment. And therefore that all measures that seek to improve greed are bound to be fruitless. And therefore that the best way to organize society is not to try to change humans, but to set up a system that deals with their flaws.


As a far better economist than myself on this forum rightfully pointed out to me, isn't capitalism the absence of a system? That is to say, true, free-market capitalism.

In any case, I agree that Anarchy will bring world peace.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 01:12 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;141265 wrote:
I would like to start with this, to see how you respond. Let your response flow freely...

Has humanity moved towards moral obligations? Or is, for example, the abolishment of slavery a luxury that we can afford because we are rich because of technological progress? I would argue that it's not a change in human nature that has caused this improvement, but a change in incentives. We have our material needs met, therefore we move on to wanting the content feeling of not having slavery. We benefit more from not having slavery than from having it. Meaning we are still led by our personal benefit, or greed. Just that now this greed is better served by something that is more moral.
This implies that there has not been a moral evolution and we are not more enlightened.
A very pessimistic view of human nature, with your view of mankind we are manipulated monsters. I hope to be more optimistic of human nature. Accepting our weaknesses we create regulations, laws to remind us of our base interests. Its what makes us just that little improved by admitting our weaknesses.
 

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