Why Islam? Fastest Growing Religion in America

Oh, as a side note - the vintage is actually as Old as Jesus when he said 'Give unto Caesar what is Caesars'. He also never rebelled against the State . He had stories for upholding the State (aside from the tax issue - putting the Romans Soldier's ear back on when one of his followers chopped it off and going aong peacefully with them). He actually seemed more scathing of religion than he did of the State.

So no, I don't think it can be said to just be a recent vintage, although for a great many years it was different.

What Jesus said, or is reputed to have said, about the separation of religious duties from duties toward the secural government is immaterial inasmuch as Jesus only preached; he did not legislate. Once a Church was firmly established, it became firmly entwined with the nascent governments of the emerging post-Roman empire Europe. 'Pagan' kingdoms were conquered by 'Christian' princes in the name of God and Christendom. (Sound like the early days of Islam?)

In a very real sense, Jesus had nothing to do with the founding of Christianity, certainly not with the concept of Christianity as it was tridionally practiced in Medieval Europe, nor, in fact, as it is understood by most so-called Christians today.

I don't mean this to be a diatribe against Christianity and certainly not a defense of Islam (not even sure if Islam qua Islam needs defending). I'm just pointing out that any number of "differences" between Islam and Christianity which the so-called Christians keep pointing out are, in fact, at best superficial.

That's quite okay. I see where you are coming from, but think that you are perhaps too wrapped up in the history of it, rather than the situation as it stands today (which is a separation of State and Church) - and I pointed out the Jesus thing just as a point of interest. If you find it irrelevant, that's okay too.

Again - you are talking about literal founders who spread and started the Church. Jesus is the effective founder because without him there would be no christianity.

When all is said an done, Jesus is upheld in Christianity not just as 'God', but as the moral pinnacle.

The results in the outside world would very strongly suggest otherwise.

No, Paul founded Christianity, and packaged it up for the Roman Empire. Christ was a useful figure to hang it all on.

This is not the case. Christianity wasn't adopted in the Roman empire until long, long after Paul's death, by Emperor Constantine - because Christianity had become to strong by Constantine's time.

It just happens that once Rome made it the State Religion, they came to control it ....and thereby extend a great deal of 'control' over the concept of Christianity (and making Paul their 'Rock'), and Christianity came to 'control' the European world for over 1000 years after.

And without Jesus, there would be no Christianity.

Right. So where's your so-called separation of church and state?



We can't be absolutely certain of that at all. All we can say is that it would be called something other than "Christianity" because the figurehead would be someone other than Jesus of Nazareth. (A great deal of what we think of as Christian tradition actually derives from ancient pagan trdition, inaugurated by the Pythagoreans, later augmented by elements from the Celtic and Germanic traditions.)

I do know that. Paul, a Roman citizen made it acceptable to Romans. Without him it would have remained a Jewish cult.

More importantly, Paul made the cult palatable to the Hellenistic world which at that time represented the middle and monied classes of the middle east. The Romans tended to despise christianity, when they actually reached the point where they could distinguish the cult from Jews in general. Jews were notorious to the Romans, and christians were indistinguishable in this regard, because they refused to pay lip service to the civic religion. You could profess any religion you chose, so long as you went down to the temple once a year and gave the priests a chicken to slaughter (the Romans practiced divination based on the behavior or entrails of birds). As long as you did that, everything was hunky dory. Jews (and the early christians, who were not even known as christians, were indistinguishable) loudly and publicly refused to do this. The tales of early persecutions of the cult are largely bullshit, but when it did happen, it was their enraged neighbors who didn't want a bunch of Palestinian hill billies bringing down the wrath of Rome on them.

It was only late in the second century that the cult becaume wide-spread and visible in the empire. When there was official persecution, it was because the idiots meddled in politics, and showed a rare genius for backing the wrong horse. Septimius Severus, who rose to power at the end of the second century, slaughtered a great many christians--but not because they were christian, rather because they had backed the opposition when he was fighting for the imperial crown. Modern christians, of course, make noble martyrs of these clueless meddlers.

The most popular cult among the Legionaries, the the people in the empire apart from the Patrician class whose opinions really mattered, despised the christians as followers of a cult for slaves and women. The cult of Mithras was wide-spread and solidly entrenched in the legions. It was not until the early 5th century that the cult made any headway in the legions, and that was only after they had been devastated by the upheavals contingent upon the Gothic and Vandal rebellions. In the attempt to recover, the empire filled its legions with Goths and Vandals, most of whom had become Arian christians, which is to say, heretics.

Are you being deliberately dense?

Quite possibly, and then Christianity would resemble something somewhat different than the form it has today.

Or it may be confined to a historical footnote.

Paul made it palatable to the Hellenistic Greeks--but it would not have been restricted to a Jewish cult. Earlier in the history of the middle east, Aramaean merchants had spread confessional Judaism, carrying it into the Arabian penninsula, central Asia and as far east as China. They did the same thing with Nestorian christianity--they carried it to all the places in which they traded, once again, as far east as China. Had there been no Paul, i suspect that someone would have found a way to spread the cult to the Hellenistic world, but even if they hadn't, it is unlikely that it would have simply remained a curious local cult.

Of course - the problem here being we can only make guesses as to such.

Edit : Setanta - did you study these things at some stage? Or is that just from readings? (some of the stuff you've said is interesting, even if I haven't replied)

Yes, i have studied early church history.

according to wikipedia statistics there are 1.17 billion christians close to 200 million. 13.2 million jews not 40 million. and 1.57 billion muslims not 6 million. and i guess in mathematics u were only taught plus minus. ever heard of multiplication ? so who's really winning or losing the most ground ?

Good thinking.

because it has real faith in God.

Subhan'Allah, it's good to know Islam is the fastest growing religion across the world.

Kinda like rooting and cheering for the fastest growing balloon at a boardwalk water shooting game, wouldn't you say?

You know what happens to that balloon!

Kinda like rooting and cheering for the fastest growing balloon at a boardwalk water shooting game, wouldn't you say?

You know what happens to that balloon!


"Subhan'Allah"= Glorious is God

Yeah what isn't there to cheer about? I love my religion and I'm more than amazed that it's the fastest growing religion in the World.

And nice example about the balloon and water shooting game

But we're not here to discuss about petty games that little infants play, were talking about a religion that's expanded throughout the years and is constantly doing so day by day.

And there's nothing that can stop Islam from spreading.

Thanks for your reply