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From Brain to Consciousness to Mind--the biological basis

 
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 06:09 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94875 wrote:
Actually, now you mention it, it might be worth looking into those brainwave tests of people meditating. However it occurs to me that whatever can be observed third-person is not really an indication of the first-person significance of these states. It shall have a look around. (Although still waiting to see if anyone has anything to say about the Piano Study.)


... if we're progressing from brain-to-consciousness-to-mind, I think an accounting of meditation may be worthwhile ... as for the piano study, Hawkins (in "On Intelligence") postulates that the cortical structures that are used for conscious action are also used to consciously perceive and imagine action - it's what mimicry is made of ...

jeeprs;94875 wrote:
... which according to the strictly biological account is not supposed to occur (please correct me if I am mistaken in all this).


... that would be mistaken ... downward causation is not supposed to occur in a strictly reductionist biological account ... if, on the other hand, you deploy both reductive and synthetic methods to the biological understanding of brain/consciousness, then causation can be seen to run in both directions (reciprocal causation) ...

---------- Post added 10-03-2009 at 05:51 PM ----------

salima;94870 wrote:
how this would relate to any medical definitions of conscioueness or awareness, i dont know.


... I don't think it needs to relate to medical definitions of consciousness ... as the title of this thread implies, KJ is not stopping at consciousness but will also be presenting a biological account of mind ... medical/legal definitions of observations that are indicative of consciousness are a starting point for defining the boundary between consciousness and unconsciousness, and this lets one interpret other observations ("this MRI was done when the patient was unconscious; this MRI was done when the patient was conscious - note the differences here, here, and here") ... however, are these definitions sufficient for defining the boundary between conscious and subconscious activity? between consciousness and mind? between different states of consciousness and mind? ... that is, if we're not simply shooting for a "biological basis of minimal consciousness," don't we need definitions of indicative observations that can cover the whole nine yards? ...
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 07:17 pm
@KaseiJin,
This idea of 'reciprocal causation' introduces a completely new dimension to the idea of natural selection does it not?

I mean, from the viewpoint of evolutionary psychology, could it indicate that humans with specific 'thinking skills' were more likely to succeed, and therefore proliferate? These skills could be communicated extra-somatically, via cultural means, through tradition and the elders training the young. Certainly in ancient cultures the oral traditions go back well beyond the origins of any kind of written record. So if this were so, is it an example of cultural consciousness, as distinct from just the genotype, being a factor in the evolution of the species?
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 07:41 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94958 wrote:
This idea of 'reciprocal causation' introduces a completely new dimension to the idea of natural selection does it not?

I mean, from the viewpoint of evolutionary psychology, could it indicate that humans with specific 'thinking skills' were more likely to succeed, and therefore proliferate? These skills could be communicated extra-somatically, via cultural means, through tradition and the elders training the young. Certainly in ancient cultures the oral traditions go back well beyond the origins of any kind of written record. So if this were so, is it an example of cultural consciousness, as distinct from just the genotype, being a factor in the evolution of the species?


... I would hesitate to use the phrase "cultural consciousness" due to the obvious implications, but yes - the opinion has been voiced that the evolution of the human species is now primarily cultural ... the (downward) effect on genetic evolution is that the human species is carrying forward many genes that might otherwise have been eliminated ... hard-core eugenicists might label this "de-evolution", but a more recent understanding of the matter is that the broader the gene pool for a species, the better are the chances for that species to evolve (as opposed to going extinct) in response to radical environmental change ...
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 08:01 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94866 wrote:
Very interesting. So is 'identity' a specific function of consciousness?
You misunderstood what I meant by "identity". I was not referring at all to individual or personal identity.

Identity is one of several definitions of the verb "to be". So you can use "is", "am", "are" etc to link two things that are identical -- aka identity.

jeeprs;94866 wrote:
So is 'identity' a specific function of consciousness?
But since you asked, yes it is. At least self-identity is (we externally impose identity on lots of things that don't have consciousness, like kids playing with action figures and dolls).
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 04:11 am
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;94960 wrote:
... I would hesitate to use the phrase "cultural consciousness" due to the obvious implications, but yes - the opinion has been voiced that the evolution of the human species is now primarily cultural ... the (downward) effect on genetic evolution is that the human species is carrying forward many genes that might otherwise have been eliminated ... hard-core eugenicists might label this "de-evolution", but a more recent understanding of the matter is that the broader the gene pool for a species, the better are the chances for that species to evolve (as opposed to going extinct) in response to radical environmental change ...


Not what I was driving at actually. I wonder whether the subtle interplay of factors combining culture, consciousness, and knowledge, growing through aeons of millenia, really are just the outcome of the selfish gene.

it seems to me that the reductionist viewpoint is always after some particle, organ, or entity - basically an examinable object - which has an attribute, in terms of which 'everything can be explained'. So genetics explains the brain, which explains consciousness, which explains the mind. That's upward causation, is it not?
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 01:22 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;95017 wrote:
So genetics explains the brain, which explains consciousness, which explains the mind.


... to better identify what it is that an exclusive reductionism entails, I would rephrase this as "The brain is an epiphenomenon of genetics, consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain, and mind is an epiphenomenon of consciousness", where an "epiphenomenon" is defined as a secondary phenomenon that is an effect of a primary phenomenon but which cannot reciprocally affect that primary phenomenon ... the logical conclusion of reductionism is that everything is an epiphenomenon of elementary physics ... that is, elementary physics is the only true primary phenomenon, and so everything above elementary physics is simply an effect of the properties of elementary physics and cannot reciprocally affect those properties.

I think this view is tenable only if "elementary physics" is allowed to arbitrarily grow to incorporate all of relational dynamics (in which case it wouldn't be very "elementary" Smile) ... for example, a water molecule comes into being through the relational dynamics of two hydrogens and one oxygen "sharing" electrons ... the upward (emergent) results of the relation are the properties of water ... the downward result of the relation is that the outer shells of the hydrogens and the oxygen are now (virtually) filled and that the properties that normally drive these atoms to enter into such relations are no longer in evidence (e.g., these particular atoms will not enter into any additional such relations until they are disengaged from this relation) ... that there is a downward effect on the properties of the participating atoms is seen as unremarkable because all I have described so far is considered to be part of elementary physics ... but is this actually the first sign of "physics creep" into the realm of relational dynamics? ... that is, if one wishes to retain an exclusive reductionism, must elementary physics absorb each and every dynamic relation with downward effects (especially those of the circular/feedback kind) in order to maintain the assertion that no epiphenomenon can reciprocally affect the properties of elementary physics? ... in which case, would we simply have eliminated all epiphenomenon by definition? (that is, in order to avoid the case of an epiphenomenon affecting its primary phenomenon and/or the case of an epiphenomenon being its own primary phenomenon, would "elementary physics" have to grow to encompass all of the sciences?) ...
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 03:35 pm
@KaseiJin,
Thankyou - well said!
0 Replies
 
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 06:26 am
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;95062 wrote:
the logical conclusion of reductionism is that everything is an epiphenomenon of elementary physics ... that is, elementary physics is the only true primary phenomenon, and so everything above elementary physics is simply an effect of the properties of elementary physics and cannot reciprocally affect those properties.

I think this view is tenable only if "elementary physics" is allowed to arbitrarily grow to incorporate all of relational dynamics (in which case it wouldn't be very "elementary" Smile)


Suppose we omit the word "elementary". Would you agree that "physics is the only true primary phenomenon"? In other words, everything follows from the laws of classical and/or quantum mechanics, and there is no room for free will (in the sense of "free from the laws of physics").
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 09:54 am
@ACB,
ACB;95405 wrote:
Suppose we omit the word "elementary". Would you agree that "physics is the only true primary phenomenon"? In other words, everything follows from the laws of classical and/or quantum mechanics, and there is no room for free will (in the sense of "free from the laws of physics").


... personally, I would agree to the statement "physics provides the substrate from which all phenomena emerge" - that a phenomenon can loop back upon itself and become (one of) its own primary phenomenon I think dismisses the notion of physics as the only true primary phenomenon ... personally, I would also agree that free will is not free from the laws of classical<->quantum physics ... however, I use this peculiar notation to indicate my intuition that classical laws and quantum laws can enter into dynamic relations with each other from which emerge phenomena that could not exist in a purely classical (deterministic) universe nor a purely quantum (random) universe (witness photosynthesis, where classical and quantum mechanics are fused to achieve efficiencies that could not be achieved by either alone) ... this middle ground is largely undiscovered country ... within this middle ground, arguments against free will coming from a purely deterministic viewpoint do not apply; within this middle ground, arguments against free will coming from a pure randomness viewpoint do not apply ... and so I think it is premature to declare that there is no room for free will (in the sense of "free from determinism" and "free from pure randomness") ...
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 04:35 pm
@paulhanke,
It seems to me that science is the modelling of the world that has to agree with instrumentally measured cause and the subsequent instrumentally measured effect. The problem re consciousness is that as yet we have no instrumental measure of it. We rely on anectdotal evidence, just as we rely a great deal on the anectdotal measure of symptoms in medicine generally. This is a scientific annoyance and a philosophers delight Smile

Maybe we should consider the possibility of instrumentally measuring consciousness. Presumably it would concur with honest anectdotal evidence? Well actually not necessarily. It may be that our visual cortex for example is receiving one thing, but anectdotally we honestly report something else. In what sense could we distinguish in such an example from consciousness and mind?

Suppose our instruments were capable of not only measuring sensory input, but also measuring brain function to the extent that we could scientifically predict what the person thought they saw. This would mean that we could map not only the visual cortex and its data, but also map the brain interpretation and reformed data. eg the visual cortex recieves a muddle of leaves and this triggers the brain map of a cat that the brain subsequently reports as what it saw. Further the brain trigger of the fear of cats is measurable in effect and thus this is scientifically determined as the cause of the cat interpretation over actual leaf perception. and so on...

now i don't personally believe this will ever be possible except perhaps in a simple and hit and miss way. But suppose it was. Does it follow from this that since the mapping of the function of brain predicts what is consciously percieved and even what is anectdotally reported, that what we recognise as consciousness must exist in all forms of matter function?

In other words, such a mapping of brain function to perfect predictability of anectdotal evidence of experience does not reveal any seperate 'cause' for a new fundamental concept of consciousness. It just instrumentally measures the sequences of causes and effects within the brain, creates a functional model that agrees and then predicts what the subject will say. The latter means also a prediction as to whether the subject will say anything, which in turn explains why someone would speak or not, what they would say, whether it was what they thought they saw and also compare to what they actually saw. At no point in this concieved mapping of brain function with its predictability would the concept of consciousness as a new physical concept be necessary. BUT consciousness is anectdotally reported by the subject and the brain model would predict where and why this occurs in all brains.

Thus, that area of the model that predicts the anectdotal evidence of consciousness would be associating consciousness with that area of brain function. But there is no new force or matter here. Its just a map of interacting matter. So would science in such a situation have to conclude that consciousness arises from physical function? And if so, since the experience of consciousness adds nothing to the predictive power of the scientific model of the brain, it follows that all matter function must have consciousness under a complete scientific theory?

If not, then such a science must conclude that only certain types of matter arrays can give rise to consciousness while also maintaining that the experience of consciousness is utterly irrelevant as a component of the model of the brain. (remember i am distinguishing between the brain model and its prediction and mapping of consciousness which is relevant re modelling and prediction, with the actual subjective experience of it.) The experience of consciousness is thus seen from such a scientific point of view as both transcendental (outside scientific need for modelling the world, as compared to gravity say) and an utterly useless by product of matter function. Which isn't so different from attributing some kind of experiential consciousness to all matter function, since it would be totally irrelevant to the fundamentals that form that scientific model of the world anyway.

Personally i see consciousness as a part of the life force which to me is as useful to understanding the world as gravity. Is it possible that science will build models of the brain whereby consciousness sits alongside gravity and electricity as universal forces? And if so ..... so what! My experience of it cannot be matched by a variable in a scientific model Smile

In the end the form of a scientific theory is a text. What kind of text can be used to predict the reading of it?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 05:00 pm
@KaseiJin,
one of the anomolies that severely undermines this approach, as I understand it, as that people with abnormal brain functions, and/or anomalous mental attributes, make it very hard to determine any specific relationship between neural anatomy and mental operations. For example, there are cases of subjects with severe brain damage - one famous case being that of Phineas Gage- who really should not have been able to survive at all, but did. There are other strange cases of subjects with micro-encephaly, severly under-developed brains, who nevertheless managed to learn things and speak. Then there is neuro-plasticity, as discussed previously, which has really overturned the idea that the brain is hard-wired to a certain configuration, and which shows that the brain can completely re-organise itself in the event of an injury; well, it can sometimes.

My own brother had a major traumatic brain injury in 1986 - he was in a coma for 8 weeks and when he regained consciousness, had lost all language. We were told at the time that he would in all likelihood never leave rehabilitation. Now he lives alone, cooks, cleans the house, drives, and is quite OK.
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 05:12 pm
@jeeprs,
well yeh i tend to agree jeeprs but we never know what might be possible re neural mapping, function and prediction, even with neuro-plasticity. For the moment, philosophically the doors of interpretation and belief are wide open.

We need to see some unknowns or leaps from the scientific world. Like dark matter and energy in astronomy.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 05:29 pm
@KaseiJin,
well that is true and you never know what can be discovered. And open doors are never a bad thing. (What's that great saying, maintain an open mind but not so open your brains fall out....)

In case anyone is interested, great essay from 1996 by Tom Wolfe on neurosciences and consciousness, called Sorry but your Soul Just Died..great last paragraph too....
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:02 pm
@KaseiJin,
pagan, i got lost a little in your post, which i really liked by the way. but at the end it seemed to me you came to the opposite conclusion of what you were actually saying...!

i have been playing with the idea that the experience of consciousness is nothing more unusual than the function of ego or stream of consciousness thoughts, and that we are looking (some of us) for proof of spirituality or spirit in the wrong place.

i have entered the psych world (feeling much more sane these days by comparison) and it is amazing what kind of subjective experience the brain can produce. how many really smart people out there know their brains are playing tricks on them! still, it makes me wonder how can we prove which is the proper functioning? looking at conditions like alzheimer's and autism...and the various drugs and how they affect the functioning of the brain is amazing. right now i am trying what is used as an antibiotic for tb in its newly discovered capacity as an enhancer to exposure therapy for phobia because it affects some part of the brain that has to do with associative responses to stimulus. i now find that beta blockers are used for anxiety and i remember thirty years ago that i saw someone take one for a heart condition and that it changed him completely mentally-though the doctor at the time swore it was impossible that the drug could have any affect on his mind. now we know more...

by the way i feel like i just stepped out of mary's room. after this eye operation i now am finding out many of the things i have been looking at all my life dont look that way at all, and i assumed i saw the same things other people did. just because the same thing reflects back a color we can identify as yellow, how can we know that the effect of it is the same in another person's eyes? they can reproduce it with mixtures of paint to match another, but how can we know what exactly is their subjective experience compared to our own?

no one ever described fire to me...what i saw before was nothing compared to what i am seeing now. so which is real? which is right? whose eyes or brain s are doing the best job?
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:15 pm
@salima,
salima;98402 wrote:
just because the same thing reflects back a color we can identify as yellow, how can we know that the effect of it is the same in another person's eyes? they can reproduce it with mixtures of paint to match another, but how can we know what exactly is their subjective experience compared to our own?


ahhh the old inverted spectrum analysis. I, too, always found these thought experiments quite fascinating.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:51 pm
@pagan,
pagan;98375 wrote:
Maybe we should consider the possibility of instrumentally measuring consciousness. Presumably it would concur with honest anectdotal evidence? Well actually not necessarily. It may be that our visual cortex for example is receiving one thing, but anectdotally we honestly report something else. In what sense could we distinguish in such an example from consciousness and mind?


... perhaps as the difference between a purely behavioristic prediction of the first-person report and the actual first-person report as well as the difference between first-person reports in the same individual ... for example, what is the difference between a task performed as an automatism vs. the same task performed consciously? ... what is the difference between the experience of something in one context vs. the experience of the same thing in another? ... can such a phenomenology-informed cognitive science help to distinguish experiential states and correlate them with brain activity? ...

pagan;98375 wrote:
now i don't personally believe this will ever be possible except perhaps in a simple and hit and miss way.


... or stated another way, it may never be possible except in a statistical way ...

pagan;98375 wrote:
In other words, such a mapping of brain function to perfect predictability of anectdotal evidence of experience does not reveal any seperate 'cause' for a new fundamental concept of consciousness.


... on the other hand, it is likely to turn out to be the case that the best mappings of brain activity to first-person reports of experience will incorporate a fundamental concept of consciousness ...

pagan;98375 wrote:
BUT consciousness is anectdotally reported by the subject and the brain model would predict where and why this occurs in all brains.


... but again, this is a statistical prediction - the plasticity of the brain indicates that the developmental differences between individual brains can be huge (even moreso than the developmental difference between individual bodies) ... thus, a generalized mapping of brain activity to reported experience will be far less accurate than any of the individual mappings that fed into the generalized mapping ...

pagan;98375 wrote:
But there is no new force or matter here. Its just a map of interacting matter.


... actually, the notions of, for example, "information" (cybernetics) and "signs" (semiotics) do introduce something new beyond force and matter ...

pagan;98375 wrote:
If not, then such a science must conclude that only certain types of matter arrays can give rise to consciousness while also maintaining that the experience of consciousness is utterly irrelevant as a component of the model of the brain.


... maybe not utterly irrelevant - but it is the case that a considerable amount of brain activity is unrelated to consciousness ... and in fact, a not insignificant amount of conscious activity may be unrelated to the brain (e.g., the brain-body-world system of embodied cognition and enactivism) ...

pagan;98375 wrote:
Is it possible that science will build models of the brain whereby consciousness sits alongside gravity and electricity as universal forces? And if so ..... so what!


... I think one of the big "so what!"s in this case is that once you have an accurate model of consciousness then you have a much better basis for understanding how it can go wrong and how it can be set aright ...

---------- Post added 10-18-2009 at 08:07 PM ----------

salima;98402 wrote:
just because the same thing reflects back a color we can identify as yellow, how can we know that the effect of it is the same in another person's eyes? they can reproduce it with mixtures of paint to match another, but how can we know what exactly is their subjective experience compared to our own?


... I think we can know that our subjective experience of colors is to some degree similar by how it goes wrong (e.g., color blindness) and how it goes right (blue soothes; red excites) ...

salima;98402 wrote:
no one ever described fire to me...what i saw before was nothing compared to what i am seeing now. so which is real? which is right? whose eyes or brain s are doing the best job?


... just for my own curiosity, is it possible for you to describe how it is different (or is the difference beyond description)? ...
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 08:40 pm
@paulhanke,
hi salima Smile

Quote:
pagan, i got lost a little in your post, which i really liked by the way. but at the end it seemed to me you came to the opposite conclusion of what you were actually saying...!
lol yeh. i often get accused of that. Its because i try to be open minded and although i have a definite opinion sometimes, nevertheless i will still try to promote an alternative point of view when trying to explore an issue.


Quote:
by the way i feel like i just stepped out of mary's room. after this eye operation i now am finding out many of the things i have been looking at all my life dont look that way at all, and i assumed i saw the same things other people did. just because the same thing reflects back a color we can identify as yellow, how can we know that the effect of it is the same in another person's eyes? they can reproduce it with mixtures of paint to match another, but how can we know what exactly is their subjective experience compared to our own?

no one ever described fire to me...what i saw before was nothing compared to what i am seeing now. so which is real? which is right? whose eyes or brain s are doing the best job?
yes! .... and you raise an interesting point. Anecdotal evidence has to be expressed in language. How do we interpret that scientifically?

Hoping you get well soon by the way.

Hi paulhanke

Quote:
what is the difference between a task performed as an automatism vs. the same task performed consciously? ... what is the difference between the experience of something in one context vs. the experience of the same thing in another? ... can such a phenomenology-informed cognitive science help to distinguish experiential states and correlate them with brain activity?
well yes very good points and i agree very fundamental ones. But i was trying to see what happens philosophically if we assume that science can map and distinguish this stuff. I doubt it personally.

Quote:
... on the other hand, it is likely to turn out to be the case that the best mappings of brain function to first-person reports of experience will incorporate a fundamental concept of consciousness ......

..... thus, a generalized mapping of brain activity to reported experience will be far less accurate than any of the individual mappings that fed into the generalized mapping ...
oh i agree. But will that fundamental concept of consciousness be nevertheless still conceived of as a simple mapping to brain function. ie "here we are witnessing the function on the instrument panel, therefore we know scientifically that consciousness occurs." or ...... something more profound and fundamental to physical laws perhaps? like a force?
Quote:

... I think one of the big "so what!"s in this case is that once you have an accurate model of consciousness then you have a much better understanding of how it can go wrong and how it can be set aright ...
well yeh i totally agree with that. Science as a medical tool is very important. But medicine can conceivably be effective without the philosophy of cause and effect instrumental modelling.

What i was getting at was that if science models reality with consciousness as more fundamental than matter mapping and arrays, then even by elevating it to the likes of a fundamental force it still doesn't encapsulate the experience of that force. On the other hand if an accurate model of the brain through mapping is realisable the philosophical consequences are much greater i think. The experience of consciousness remains transcendental but the predictive power of a brain map reduces it to a quaint irrelevance. Thus philosophical issues like free will are radically affected.

With regard to information theory and semiotics i also agree that therein is an area that may yield new fundamental concepts. But personally my guess is that only in conjunction with the concept of emergence would something radically new be discovered. Else it just looks like sophisticated mapping to me.

Incidentally i don't wish to imply a snooty attitude to statistical mapping yielding only an approximate understanding. Its still knowledge and potentially of great benefit. Its just that philosophically while we are in that realm of understanding the brain we have the philosophical luxury of transcendental speculation and inspiration Smile ....... I like that!
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 02:08 am
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;98412 wrote:
...
... I think we can know that our subjective experience of colors is to some degree similar by how it goes wrong (e.g., color blindness) and how it goes right (blue soothes; red excites) ...

... just for my own curiosity, is it possible for you to describe how it is different (or is the difference beyond description)? ...


i would imagine our experience should be similar-but at the same time i am amazed at the difference in what i can see now with each of my eyes. if i look at the little girl's new bicycle with my old eye it is red, a dark cranberry sort of red. with my new eye it is pink-absolutely fuschia! so understanding that cataracts put a yellow tint on everything and that yellow is the opposite of blue, and having done some painting in my life, i am also theoretically undferstanding how colors act on each other, etc. even now i am not sure i see how adding yellow to pink would make red. and of course there is another facet, a sort of fluorescence involved which i wasnt expecting. so my question is, how much of what i am seeing now is what i saw before the cataracts (because it has been a gradual process over two years at least to reach the condition i am now in) and how much is the difference in the synthetic material in the lens of my bionic eye?

also i can see daily how the brain is figuring out how to focus at different distances-kind of spooky like there's another ghost in the machine there with me that i didnt know about...because outside of closing my eyes and thinking 'let's try this again' i really cant do anything about it.

so about the fire, now this i know without any doubt that i could never have forgotten-it is something i never saw before. fire was always a sort of orange yellow transparent thing, kind of like when sunlight moves on the water of a lake. but now, and i have seen three of them, they are made of deep rich red flames, fully opaque. they resemble people dressed in robes and hoods like klansmen, dancing in a circle-like a walt disney cartoon exactly. and i have asked other people here and they tell me fire looks like that to them. and to satisfy my own curiosity, i would like to know how many people would say that is a good description of what fire looks like! (this would be fire burning when you light a small pile of rubbish papers and leaves, etc...about 18 inches in diameter and a foot high maybe.)

but i would still have to believe that any difference between the experience of one person and another could simply be due to the difference in their equipment, their history, their chemical makeup, so many physical causes.
in other words, i am thinking consciousness doesnt have to be anything more than the physical....it is complicated enough in these terms!

but i still feel there is something more beyond that which the activity of consciousness is reaching towards, able to perceive, though maybe not affecting...something it would have to be attached to because i cant conceive of any other way it could become aware of it...but that is going off topic of this thread of course.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 12:48 pm
@pagan,
pagan;98418 wrote:
But will that fundamental concept of consciousness be nevertheless still conceived of as a simple mapping to brain function. ie "here we are witnessing the function on the instrument panel, therefore we know scientifically that consciousness occurs." or ...... something more profound and fundamental to physical laws perhaps? like a force?


... the only concept of consciousness that makes sense to me these days is the consciousness-as-complex-system concept ... a concept for which the nervous system is a central biological subsystem, but not the only subsystem ... and under this concept a simple mapping to brain activity would necessarily be incomplete, no? ...

pagan;98418 wrote:
On the other hand if an accurate model of the brain through mapping is realisable the philosophical consequences are much greater i think. The experience of consciousness remains transcendental but the predictive power of a brain map reduces it to a quaint irrelevance. Thus philosophical issues like free will are radically affected.


... I think the first-personal "what it is like" of consciousness does not currently qualify as a scientific observation simply because of the rules that science places upon itself - observations must be independently reproducible ... however, if someone in the future were able to devise a method that could put the first-personal "what it is like" on as solid a footing as independent reproducibility, the rules might be subject to change Smile ... at any rate, a correlational mapping between conscious activity and brain activity shows only that: a correlation ... the initial direction of cause (from brain to consciousness) can be inferred from the observation that not all brains exhibit consciousness, but all consciousnesses exhibit brains ... the ongoing direction of cause (both from brain to consciousness and from consciousness to brain) can be inferred from the observations that a catastrophically damaged brain results in an end to consciousness, whereas a marginally damaged brain can be (implicitly) re-wired through conscious activity (understood as consciousness repairing and rebuilding itself) ...

pagan;98418 wrote:
But personally my guess is that only in conjunction with the concept of emergence would something radically new be discovered.


... that's my drum, and I beat it frequently (much to the dismay of the folks in this thread Smile) ...

---------- Post added 10-19-2009 at 01:08 PM ----------

salima;98433 wrote:
also i can see daily how the brain is figuring out how to focus at different distances-kind of spooky like there's another ghost in the machine there with me that i didnt know about...because outside of closing my eyes and thinking 'let's try this again' i really cant do anything about it.


... wow - I'm a little envious Smile ... my own experience in this regard was much less enjoyable (but just as vivid) ... in a mountain bike accident, I managed to detach the chin region of my face from my jaw ... it was surgically re-attached, but the rehabilitation of the scrambled nerves has been interesting ... things I took for granted like eating all of a sudden started failing (e.g., things falling out of my mouth for no apparent reason) ... I eventually discovered that when they did I needed to cover my chin with my fingertips - not to hold things in, but to figure out where the heck my face was in relation to the sensations it was sending to the brain ... things like running a towel over my face after a shower were shockingly surprising - the sensation of the towel running over my chin made absolutely no sense at all ... two years (and another surgery) later, my brain has re-wired itself to a large degree - but there are still some surprising moments ... enjoy your unique visual experience while you can! (before your brain figures out how to adjust away the optical differences) ...
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 05:31 pm
@paulhanke,
hi all

here is a link to a new horizon bbc programme called "the secret you" which is an interesting set of new experiments regarding consciousness, brain scans, the sense of self and even free will.

BBC iPlayer - Horizon: 2009-2010: The Secret You

unfortunately it may require some jiggerry pokerry to play outside the uk. Maybe youtube?

very challenging ideas and results here.
 

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