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Tough Times

 
 
Elmud
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 10:39 pm
Heard on the news the other day,that one in six Americans is living in poverty. To me,that is not a recession,but a depression. I'm listening to these unemployment figures which say that we are very close to double digit numbers nationwide. Close to 10% overall, with larger numbers in many areas. Its 15% in the midwest where I live. Thing is,when you factor in the population of the country now,as opposed to the population of the country in the Great Depression years,you'll find that there are many more jobless now,than there were back then. What is amazing to me,is the fact that during these times when so many are busting their tail just trying to put food on the table,that the prices in the grocery stores are skyrocketing. Does'nt make sense. Who's to blame for this? The government? I think its societal. No one wanting to give an inch. Is there anyone out who's willing to sacrifice anything? I don't know.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,376 • Replies: 52
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salima
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 03:02 am
@Elmud,
my son is also in the midwest. i have lost count of how long he has been out of work. i also wonder what it is doing to the mental state of people if they have no way to deal with the situation. is crime on the increase? drugs? is one age group more affected than another?

is it not getting any better at all? why is the stock market going up and up and the economy is not recovering? what is going to happen next?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 06:54 am
@Elmud,
Something is going to happen next... History is another way of saying: one thing leads to another...

If you must know, nothing good is going to happen...Justice would mean that the wealth of the rich must be returned at some point to those who produced the wealth, and for that our government does not have the moral spine... So it acts as though it is acting, but it is all leisure de mains, and nothing good comes out of it... To be fixed, all must be fixed, and broken people cannot unbreak a society...We must fix ourselves and it together...
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 07:09 am
@Elmud,
Elmud;99149 wrote:
Heard on the news the other day,,that one in six Americans is living in poverty. To me,,that is not a recession,,but a depression. I'm listening to these unemployment figures which say that we are very close to double digit numbers nationwide. Close to 10% overall, with larger numbers in many areas. Its 15% in the midwest where I live. Thing is,,,when you factor in the population of the country now,,,as opposed to the population of the country in the Great Depression years,,you'll find that there are many more jobless now,,than there were back then. What is amazing to me,,is the fact that during these times when so many are busting their tail just trying to put food on the table,,that the prices in the grocery stores are skyrocketing. Does'nt make sense. Who's to blame for this? The government? I think its societal. No one wanting to give an inch. Is there anyone out who's willing to sacrifice anything? I don't know.


During the depression in the 1930's the jobless rate was over 25%. We are not near that now. "Depression" has an official definition. It is not what someone happens to feel is a depression. Finally, the inflation rate last month was, 0.2. That is not "skyrocketing".
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 07:36 am
@Elmud,
Yea they are tough; and it's alarming that nefarious/spurious trading practices can bring us to this place.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 07:40 am
@salima,
salima;99170 wrote:
my son is also in the midwest. i have lost count of how long he has been out of work. i also wonder what it is doing to the mental state of people if they have no way to deal with the situation. is crime on the increase? drugs? is one age group more affected than another?

is it not getting any better at all? why is the stock market going up and up and the economy is not recovering? what is going to happen next?


The market is an advance indicator. It is predictive. The rate of unemployment always lags the market. When the market went way down, employment was still tolerable.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 07:49 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;99202 wrote:
During the depression in the 1930's the jobless rate was over 25%. We are not near that now. "Depression" has an official definition. It is not what someone happens to feel is a depression. Finally, the inflation rate last month was, 0.2. That is not "skyrocketing".
The reality of things contradicts your softsoaping of the situation. If you read the post,,you will find the 25% jobless rate figure. The population of the US has increased significantly since the thirties so,,the jobless rate is greater now,,than it was then. Statistically,,one in six Americans live in poverty. Grocery prices have shot to the moon. Regardless of where your information comes from,,i know the difference between one dollar,,and three dollars for the same item. Take the blanket off your head ,and look at things as they are and not as they are told to you by those who are not experiencing this.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 08:00 am
@Elmud,
Elmud;99210 wrote:
The reality of things contradicts your softsoaping of the situation. If you read the post,,you will find the 25% jobless rate figure. The population of the US has increased significantly since the thirties so,,the jobless rate is greater now,,than it was then. Statistically,,one in six Americans live in poverty. Grocery prices have shot to the moon. Regardless of where your information comes from,,i know the difference between one dollar,,and three dollars for the same item. Take the blanket off your head ,and look at things as they are and not as they are told to you by those who are not experiencing this.


But your view is anecdotal. What seems to you true, is based on your very limited information, confined to what you happen to observe in your area. Government statistics are scientifically gathered over the entire country. Yours is a very small sample, and so may not be representative. And, if grocery prices have gone up, other prices (e.g. energy) have gone down. And, there is no 25% jobless figure or anything like it.
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:42 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;99215 wrote:
But your view is anecdotal. What seems to you true, is based on your very limited information, confined to what you happen to observe in your area. Government statistics are scientifically gathered over the entire country. Yours is a very small sample, and so may not be representative. And, if grocery prices have gone up, other prices (e.g. energy) have gone down. And, there is no 25% jobless figure or anything like it.
You're not picking up on the fact that the population in 2009 is far greater than the population of the thirties. There are more folks out of work now than there were in the great depression. I'm not a doom and gloomer. Thats just a fact.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 10:17 am
@Elmud,
Elmud;99245 wrote:
You're not picking up on the fact that the population in 2009 is far greater than the population of the thirties. There are more folks out of work now than there were in the great depression. I'm not a doom and gloomer. Thats just a fact.


I wonder what your evidence is for that "fact". I have to research it, but I bet it is a factoid. And even if what you say were true, that is not inconsistent with my point that that percentage is very different. And of course, there are now many programs for relief that did not exist in the 1930's. Welfare, unemployment insurance, and so on.
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 11:22 am
@kennethamy,
I think they call it math.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 11:40 am
@Elmud,
In my opinion, the worst of it is yet to come. The recession should have been a much larger correction, given the artificiality of the mortgage market, and everything that is built on that. The reason it has been somewhat postponed, so far, is due to the government bailouts, both directly as a result of the great influx of credit, and indirectly as a result of increased confidence in the economy, which is why the market seems to be rallying. Yet, it will not last.

Also, inflation is not all that high if you rely on the CPI and the govt.'s figures, but there are all sorts of major problems with the CPI...it is nearly meaningless now, because those who calculate it have the power to input whatever they want about the value of a good, regardless of market value.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 12:54 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud;99149 wrote:
Heard on the news the other day,that one in six Americans is living in poverty. To me,that is not a recession,but a depression.
The economy has always been driven by where the money is, not by where the people are. The people and businesses who have money have enough economic power to keep our national economic numbers (like GDP) from resembling a depression.

But you're right -- there is a tremendous amount of poverty in this country, it's all around and it's horrible.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:04 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud;99266 wrote:
I think they call it math.


What do you think they call math, Elmud?
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 01:55 pm
@Elmud,
GDP of course also has many problems, if used to measure an economy's overall state of health. For example, it says nothing about inequality of wealth, quality of goods or services, foreign US-owned production (this was in the old GNP calculation), black markets, etc.

GDP increases don't tell us whether or not there was an actual increase in wealth-creating investments, or if there was simply an increase in consumption. Look at a comparison of national debt to GDP over the last decade, and see how the measured increases in, largely consumption, are increasingly offset by more and more debt. The change in the debt-to-GDP ratio in the last few years is startling...

GDP is also not supposed to (or really able to) measure the standard of living or welfare of a nation in general, yet people frequently attempt to use it as such.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 03:10 pm
@salima,
salima;99170 wrote:
my son is also in the midwest. i have lost count of how long he has been out of work. i also wonder what it is doing to the mental state of people if they have no way to deal with the situation. is crime on the increase? drugs? is one age group more affected than another?

is it not getting any better at all? why is the stock market going up and up and the economy is not recovering? what is going to happen next?
I really do not know Salima. Surely the crime rate will go up in times of economic distress. Always does. I just worry about the young people and kids. Always want your children to have the same opportunities as others.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 07:32 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;99252 wrote:
I wonder what your evidence is for that "fact". I have to research it, but I bet it is a factoid. And even if what you say were true, that is not inconsistent with my point that that percentage is very different. And of course, there are now many programs for relief that did not exist in the 1930's. Welfare, unemployment insurance, and so on.

I can tell you one thing... Resources are thin... Many people living in the city had people who were still on the farm, so they could always get food... Today the family farm is a thing of the past, and the wealth of this nation, farm, cow, lock, stock and barrel is owned by the rich...We own debt, and they own all the profit built on debt... So; you can compare the two situations, our depression and theirs; but we are in worse shape, if for no other reason than we should be in better shape given the advances in technology and the expectation of human kind... Instead we are slipping into a feudalism of production that does not have the advantage of feudalism past, of public service being the price of enjoyment of wealth...

If America starts to look for its wealth it will find we are owned by the world... All we will be able to do is take back our land, and start from zero...We should take a lesson from it...Everyone can stand some exploitation... Every country can afford some rich folks, and it is good to reward intelligence and invention... When a society reaches a point where all the good made by nature (or God) is taken in interest, and all the produce of the people is turned to profit, then the people must live and work and die to feed the machine that abuses them... The rich simply take too much for doing nothing... They force the situation where people must borrow, and then they run them out of work, and lower the wages of those who remain... Less and less people must support more and more non workers until the whole edifice falls of its own weight...
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 09:17 am
@Elmud,
Why deflation is not noticed even when it exists.

Consumers have trouble finding falling prices - Yahoo! Finance
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 10:35 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;99840 wrote:
Why deflation is not noticed even when it exists.

Consumers have trouble finding falling prices - Yahoo! Finance

It is all empty inflation if the guts are cut out of the economy...It looks dead, but it will roar back... Capitalism is done...In trying to drive down costs to maximize profits it has undercut the whole support of the society... With the government unable to tax those with the money and willing to tax those without money to no avail, it finds itself broke, and without no visible means of support... Bankruptcy leads to revolution... If, for a society to survive its government must die then the government dies... That is the great law of all societies, that survival often demands a change of forms... But do not think for a moment that that it will be easy..
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 11:30 am
@Fido,
Fido;99857 wrote:
It is all empty inflation if the guts are cut out of the economy...It looks dead, but it will roar back... Capitalism is done...In trying to drive down costs to maximize profits it has undercut the whole support of the society... With the government unable to tax those with the money and willing to tax those without money to no avail, it finds itself broke, and without no visible means of support... Bankruptcy leads to revolution... If, for a society to survive its government must die then the government dies... That is the great law of all societies, that survival often demands a change of forms... But do not think for a moment that that it will be easy..


Hmmm. I wonder what that has to do with it.
 

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