Suicide: cowardly or courageous?

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

You are correct to murder yourself is to spit into Gods eye and throw the precious gift of life right back into his face

I'm quite certain that The person you are referring to would have a sense of compassion for the person who would commit this act.

I usually do not type long post but, for you Alan, I thought this might be helpful.

"Schizoaffective disorder" is a psychiatric diagnosis of neurobiological illness. It describes a condition where symptoms of a "mood disorder" and symptoms of "schizophrenia" are both present. A person may manifest "psychosis" or impairments in the "perception" or expression of reality,most commonly in the form of auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions or disorganized speech and thinking, as well as discrete manic and/or mixed and/or "depressive" episodes in the context of significant social or occupational dysfunction. The disorder usually begins in early adulthood although,rarely,it is diagnosed in childhood(prior to age 13).Schizoaffective disorder is more common in women than it is in men.Dispite the greater variety of symptoms, the illness is more episodic and has an overall more favorable outcome, {prognosis) than schizophrenia.

There are two types of schizoaffective disorder; the bipolar type and the depressive type. In general, schizoaffective disorder bipolar type has a better prognosis than the depressive type, which can result in a residual defect with the passing of time.

The mainstay of treatment is pharmacotherapy with an antipsychotic and an antidepressant and/or mood stabilizer. Psychotherapy, vocational and social rehabilitation are also important. A specific type of psychosocial rehabilitation known as psychiatric rehabilitation can improve the prognosis of schizoaffective disorder considerably, although it must be sought out to produce its good effects. In acute cases, "Where there is a (risk to self and others)," involuntary hospitalization may be necessary.

Some people diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder are likely to be diagnosed with comorbid conditions, such as substance abuse.

Children diagnosed with this disorder are likely to have other comorbid neurological disorders such as pervasive developmental disorder, autism and learning disabilities.

The diagnosis was introduced in 1933.

When one seeks to theorize about the moral implications of suicide, one should consider the condition of "sickness" or "illness" that can produce the action. I'm quite certain that the creator is intelligent enough to be aware of the illness, and have compassion in regard to it.

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@Elmud,

Holiday20310401 wrote:

This is such a vague point to make. What do you imply a mental illness does exactly that stipulates such a reaction to the world(perception thereof)

There are many kinds of mental illness, Holiday. Not all mental illnesses drive people to suicide, some mental illnesses drive people to see the world through rose tinted glasses. It can go both ways: from despair to joy.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Elmud

Thank you very much for your post, I appreciate and all of what you said was true Smile

I am a life long sufferer from extreme manic/depression I do not like the term bi polar as this waters down the true horror and unspeakable fear pain and desolation i have had to experience over and over again during my life

I have been hospitalized at least 18 times over the years and have had to undergo the whole gambit of treatments including ECT.

I mention this as I hope those reading my posts will understand if I sometimes go off track and they will warn me by PM.

It is a destroyer of self and I get very angry when I see celebrities bragging on Oprah Winfrey's TV show about their non existent bipolar disorder

Nearly every second person is now supposed to suffer from bipolar disorder indeed it seems to have become the disease of Vogue, If you do not have it you are not in the crowd you are not in the zone and out of fashion

These people being highly creative do have mood swings a little more extreme that most of the population , but to medicate them with poisonous substances like Lithium just removes their creativity

Many great persons had this type of mild bipolar and thank god they were not medicated as we might have been speaking German now, Wiston Churchill was bipolar

I am well controlled now as medical science has made huge progress in treating MD

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Nothing wrong with going off track every now and then. My mind wanders too at times. Guess that is one of the things that makes us human.

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@WithoutReason,

Suicide can be a perfectly rational decision as life isn't always better than death. If you're terminally ill and constantly in pain, I'd attribute mental illness to you if you WEREN'T suicidal. In general, it requires a lot of will power, almost unbelievable will power, unless you're mentally ill, to actually commit suicide. Pulling a trigger may seem like a simple thing, but it's anything but. So yea it can be courageous in the sense of overcoming a lot of fear. Under different circumstances it can be cowardly if LIVING causes more fear than DYING, for example if you're certain that this kidnapper of yours will torture you for a long time, not letting you die. Though "cowardly" also has the negative connotation of "you should not" rather than just about giving in to fear.

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@WithoutReason,

Hehehe ethics is circumstantial.

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@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Hehehe ethics is circumstantial.

ROFL, Amen dude, so are the terms cowardly and courageous.

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@Sleepy phil,

Sleepy wrote:

Suicide can be a perfectly rational decision as life isn't always better than death. If you're terminally ill and constantly in pain, I'd attribute mental illness to you if you WEREN'T suicidal. In general, it requires a lot of will power, almost unbelievable will power, unless you're mentally ill, to actually commit suicide. Pulling a trigger may seem like a simple thing, but it's anything but. So yea it can be courageous in the sense of overcoming a lot of fear. Under different circumstances it can be cowardly if LIVING causes more fear than DYING, for example if you're certain that this kidnapper of yours will torture you for a long time, not letting you die. Though "cowardly" also has the negative connotation of "you should not" rather than just about giving in to fear.

I suppose physical pain could put a person into a highly depressed state. Whatever the reason, I do not consider this act to be a moral issue. Is it cowardly? I don't think so. Is it courageous? I'm not sure. Maybe, its just a person who for whatever reason, has reached their breaking point. I think all of us has a breaking point.

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@Elmud,

", and when no hope was left in sight on that starry,starry night, you took your life as lovers often do. But I could have told you Vincent,this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you."- Don McLean.

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@Elmud,

Sleepy

Quote:

Suicide can be a perfectly rational decision as life isn't always better than death. If you're terminally ill and constantly in pain, I'd attribute mental illness to you if you WEREN'T suicidal. In general, it requires a lot of will power, almost unbelievable will power, unless you're mentally ill, to actually commit suicide. Pulling a trigger may seem like a simple thing, but it's anything but. So yea it can be courageous in the sense of overcoming a lot of fear. Under different circumstances it can be cowardly if LIVING causes more fear than DYING, for example if you're certain that this kidnapper of yours will torture you for a long time, not letting you die. Though "cowardly" also has the negative connotation of "you should not" rather than just about giving in to fear.

I disagree suicide is never rational, even in the case of people wanting a way out of life due to unimaginable intractable pain. It is always a case of desperation by a person who is unhealthy in one way or the other, be it mental , or physical

Elmud

[QUOTE]", and when no hope was left in sight on that starry,starry night, you took your life as lovers often do. But I could have told you Vincent,this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you."- Don McLean.[/QUOTE]

Vincent van Gogh was a very sick man suffering from manic depressive psychosis. Nice lyrics though

He only sold one painting in his life time and that was to his brother

A painting by him would costs millions even hundreds of millions today, oh how some must die to get acknowledge for their brilliance and contribution to history and beauty

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Sleepy

I disagree suicide is never rational, even in the case of people wanting a way out of life due to unimaginable intractable pain. It is always a case of desperation by a person who is unhealthy in one way or the other, be it mental , or physical

Elmud

Vincent van Gogh was a very sick man suffering from manic depressive psychosis. Nice lyrics though

He only sold one painting in his life time and that was to his brother

A painting by him would costs millions even hundreds of millions today, oh how some must die to get acknowledge for their brilliance and contribution to history and beauty

I disagree. Suicide, although regarded as a mortal sin by the Catholic church, is merely just another death in our physical world. It can be caused by anything, not necessarily irrational thought.

I've often thought of this universe in such a way in which we are eternally reincarnated until we commit suicide. It appears as though the entire world looks down upon killing oneself, and such societal pressure might cause us to not commit suicide. But if we are finally ready to let go of this world on our own, we can move on to the next.

I still will never be able to do it.

So although my comment was slightly off topic, the main point is that it's never that simple. Reason can lead to suicide.

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Sleepy

I disagree suicide is never rational, even in the case of people wanting a way out of life due to unimaginable intractable pain. It is always a case of desperation by a person who is unhealthy in one way or the other, be it mental , or physical

Elmud

Vincent van Gogh was a very sick man suffering from manic depressive psychosis. Nice lyrics though

He only sold one painting in his life time and that was to his brother

A painting by him would costs millions even hundreds of millions today, oh how some must die to get acknowledge for their brilliance and contribution to history and beauty

"Weathered faces lined in pain, are soothed beneath the artist's loving hand."=Don McLean

He saw so much pain, suffering and injustice in his day, and there was nothing he could do except to paint portraits of his times. Aside from the obvious condition of a broken heart caused by loneliness, his heart was also broken because of the plight of his countrymen and women.

Yes, he was mentally ill. In his case, I assume it was from living a life witnessing mans inhumanity to man, and not being able to do anything about it.

"Now I think I know, what you tried to say to me. How you suffered for your sanity, and how you tried to set them free. They did not listen then, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will."-Don McLean

1 Reply

@Elmud,

Elmud

Quote:

"Now I think I know, what you tried to say to me. How you suffered for your sanity, and how you tried to set them free. They did not listen then, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will."-Don McLean

Much like Vincent I too have suffered for my sanity, and I know he was a manic depressive by his vivid paintings, such as the bright yellow sunflowers of the yellow house//

When one is in a manic phase every sense, such as sight, smell and sound are very much more intense

Suicide is neither brave or cowardly, suicide is always an act of "desperation", I know this first hand

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@Alan McDougall,

I diagree Alan. Suicide isn't always a case of desperation. Psychologists make the similar mistake thinking suicide must be a case of depression. But undepressed, nondesperate people can certainly want to commit suicide, and if they were to do so it can be a perfectly rational decision. Sometimes it's not desperation; sometimes it's people who are just tired of life and wanting to move on (to afterlife or to nothingness or whatever their belief). Of course, in many cases, it is desperation, but just because one's desperate it doesn't make it irrational. Circumstances can be such that one is desperate and there's no way out. If you're in a war and everyone around you has died and you run out of ammo and know for sure that the enemy will not take surrender, it's the circumstances that make you desperate, not your mental deficiency or illness in any way. A perfectly rational person in this case may very well commit suicide and the claim that he was irrational or immoral doesn't even make sense. Of course he was desperate; who wouldn't be in such circumstances?

But even in much less dramatic cases, I don't see suicide as that big a deal to warrant moral or rational condemnation. It is akin to, in my view, to quitting the med school after your fourth year. I suppose it could be irrational in some ways, but rational in other ways. It is a kind of waste, after all that learning and money spent, but if it's not ultimately what you want, it's your decision. No more, no less.

1 Reply

@Sleepy phil,

Sleepy

Quote:

I diagree Alan. Suicide isn't always a case of desperation. Psychologists make the similar mistake thinking suicide must be a case of depression. But undepressed, nondesperate people can certainly want to commit suicide,

Respectfully Sleepy I think that I might know more about suicide than you do, because I have tried it and damn near successfully. It was brought on by a state of absolute desperation , utter loss of all hope a desolation so unimaginable to those who have never plunged into this dark abyss of loneliness and mental relentless pain

IN various hospitals that I was forced into due to my situation with bipolar depression, I saw many people who had attempted suicide and none of then were rational

Of course the case of a husband giving his life to save his wife from being murdered by a killer could also be called suicide, but to me this is not suicide but and act of bravery

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@WithoutReason,

My namesake, Thucydides, has said:

"The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it."

I think you will agree that someone who is suicidal does not have "the clearest vision of what is before them," so it cannot be said that they are brave, for certain.

Also, you say that someone has to be brave to committ suicide because we are uncertain of what would follow. You must concede that you are also uncertain of any future event, even if we live. The status quo could conceivably change just as drastically at any time. Death may be more similar to the life we now live than the one we would if we killed ourselves. The point is, the uncertainty argument doesn't quite work because we are wholly uncertain of what the future lies at every juncture.

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@WithoutReason,

I don't know how you could know more about suicide, Alan; do you have experience killing yourself? Yea? Then how can you write on this forum if you're dead? Ok, if we're talking attempted suicide, yes, I have experience at attempting suicide. I once went out to a park 2 am with a loaded gun, with every intention of killing myself. Even then, I don't claim to know any more about suicide than anyone else as I know only about my own situation and what I went through. You, on the other hand, seem to think that you know all there's to know about it from your one attempt. Wow. Talk about gross generalization.

Anyway, I admit there was desperation in my situation, but I don't see why every case would have to be that way; I've certainly heard about cases where that wasn't the case. As for depression, etc., no I wasn't depressed; I don't care what you or any of those quacks, I mean psychologists, say. To me it was a perfectly rational decision had I gone through it. I mean I could've been MISTAKEN in my thoughts, but I certainly was not irrational.

My career was going nowhere. My 4-year girlfriend had betrayed me and I had no one, literally, in my life. Had I been rational, I probably would've done it.

And Thucydides, sorry to disappoint you, but I certainly DON'T agree that someone who's suicidal does not have a clear vision of what is before them. I don't see why they couldn't have the clearest vision of all, no reason at all. Why you would even think that, much less expect everyone to agree with you, is really beyond me.

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@Sleepy phil,

Sleepy

Quote:

I don't know how you could know more about suicide, Alan; do you have experience killing yourself?

I tried to kill myself but did not succeed, My attempt was serious, but thank god I failed

This is, decidedly ,one test one must try their very best to fail

Quote:

My career was going nowhere. My 4-year girlfriend had betrayed me and I had no one, literally, in my life. Had I been rational, I probably would've done it.

What you state makes me think you action was out of proportion to your problems.

Maybe you had reached a point where it was impossible to reconcile what was happening to you and you took an action that you thought might resolve the problem.

You felt betrayed by your girlfriend , by god by fate and by not being recognised as an excellent worker were are and was overlooked for promotion

I think you were possibly more angry than desperate and wanted to get back and hurt those that hurt you?

This is all conjecture on my part and what I said above could apply to millions of others

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@WithoutReason,

Angry? Yes, of course; who wouldn't be angry in my situation? Get back and hurt those that hurt me? I don't see how suicide accomplishes that. She cheated on me, lied to me, and left me for another guy. OK, she might feel a bit of shame or guilt perhaps, but hurt? I don't see how. There was no "problem" and I didn't consider suicide as a solution to any problem. There was nothing to reconcile. Sometimes, you can get to a point in life where you just don't want to live any more, just tired of living. I still am. But we all seem to have these innate, irrational instinct to live no matter what, that makes it very difficult to produce the overwhelming will power necessary to carry out a suicide.

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@Sleepy phil,

Sleepy

Quote:

Angry? Yes, of course; who wouldn't be angry in my situation? Sometimes, you can get to a point in life where you just don't want to live any more, just tired of living. I still am. But we all seem to have these innate, irrational instinct to live no matter what, that makes it very difficult to produce the overwhelming will power necessary to carry out a suicide.

To live is the most basic of all human desires, those in the holocaust death camps often said they were so desperate to continue living for even one more minute that they would have done nearly anything to survive for just a minute longer

Of course not all the victims were so desperate to survive but most of the people subjected to this unspeakable horror really wanted to live and see their beloved ones again.

Victor Frankel possibly the most eminent psychiatrist of the last century was a survivor of the death camps he wrote a book "Mans Search for Meaning" even in that hopeless bleak dark place he found meaning and due to this he survived the unimaginable trauma, you should try to get it and read it

I perceive you as a very good interesting person much loved by your family and taking your life would hurt them beyond measure

Life is the most precious gift given to us by God and to murder ourselves in cold blood is like spitting in the face of God

To kill ourselves is irrational not not the reverse that you stated, that the desire to live is irrational

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Suicide: cowardly or courageous?

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