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Evolution by Epigenesis: Farewell to Darwinism, Neo and Otherwise

 
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 10:52 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;109830 wrote:
How much did Darwin know about genetics?

Very little - if anything. I read somewhere that he had had some correspondence with Mendel late in life, but not prior to writing On the Origin of Species.

DNA does break down after a while. It might be possible to find DNA in the remains of mammoths and the like - but dinosaur remains are too old to collect DNA from.
0 Replies
 
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 10:59 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;109482 wrote:
What with all these evolution threads?

also, lol at the term "Darwinism"...


It's a primarily american forum. Americans don't like evolution. They are pretty far behind... It's good that I live in Denmark, top 2. Smile


---------- Post added 12-10-2009 at 06:02 PM ----------

Dave Allen;109832 wrote:
Very little - if anything. I read somewhere that he had had some correspondence with Mendel late in life, but not prior to writing On the Origin of Species.

DNA does break down after a while. It might be possible to find DNA in the remains of mammoths and the like - but dinosaur remains are too old to collect DNA from.


Maybe. Perhaps new techniques can fix this problem.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 11:09 am
@Emil,
Emil;109837 wrote:
Maybe. Perhaps new techniques can fix this problem.

Well, it would be hubris to say it couldn't be done, period - but dinosaur remains are mineralised anyway so there would be no DNA to harvest even if it was somehow recoverable.

In Jurassic Park they harvested DNA from biting insects trapped in amber, but the joy of fiction is that you don't have to worry about the likelihood of finding a trapped mosquito from the right time, with a bellyfull of the right blood, that hasn't somehow broken down beyond recognition, that allows you to sequence dino DNA.

Most of the Americans on this forum strike me as pretty au fait with evolution, by the way.
0 Replies
 
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 12:22 pm
@Emil,
Emil;109837 wrote:
It's a primarily american forum. Americans don't like evolution. They are pretty far behind... It's good that I live in Denmark, top 2. Smile



Take that Turkey!!!
0 Replies
 
memester
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 12:31 pm
@Emil,
Emil;109837 wrote:
It's a primarily american forum. Americans don't like evolution. They are pretty far behind... It's good that I live in Denmark, top 2.
.



using 2009 poll ( as compared to Dawkins' 2004 cited numbers), shows total non-believers in Evolution ( based on one common interpretation of "Evolution" ) at 25 %, the religious adsorbing Evolution at a fast clip.

---------- Post added 12-10-2009 at 02:41 PM ----------

Elaine Morgan says we evolved from aquatic apes | Video on TED.com

Elaine Morgan offers her "take"
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 01:50 pm
@memester,
The problem we have with evolution in the United States is that science education in primary schools is pretty poor. As I like to emphasize, there is nothing in the methods and science behind evolution that particularly differentiates it from anything else in the biological sciences. I mean they do 16S RNA typing to look at phylogenetic relationships between species, but this is basically the same technology as the stuff they do on CSI to match a specimen to a suspect.

But because science education is weak, people aren't comfortable with its epistemology, and therefore they subordinate its explanatory power to their whims and inclinations and beliefs.

Arjuna;109830 wrote:
How much did Darwin know about genetics?
Nothing at all (but he also realized and acknowledged that the mechanism behind natural selection was unknown).

Arjuna;109830 wrote:
I'm wondering if an attempt to recreate a dinosaur would fail for the same reason.
It would fail because it would be impossible to recreate the cytoplasmic conditions of an unfertilized dinosaur egg. If there weren't chemical (esp mRNA) gradients in the cytoplasm of eggs at the time of fertilization, then we'd just grow into a ball, a colony. The gradients make each daughter cell different, and therefore you can have differentiation into different germ layers, then tissues, then organs.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 02:55 pm
@memester,
memester;109851 wrote:
using 2009 poll ( as compared to Dawkins' 2004 cited numbers), shows total non-believers in Evolution ( based on one common interpretation of "Evolution" ) at 25 %, the religious adsorbing Evolution at a fast clip.

These aren't Dawkins' numbers are they?


She's being sensationalist in this, I think. The "dictat" of "thou shalt not believe in aquatic theory" doesn't really exist, and her list of authorities who do support Alister Hardy's hypothesis proves that it isn't exactly biological heresy.

Her claim that scientists carried on despite the change in paradigm is not entirely correct - the paradigm shift in this case was that leading to the idea that the plains of Africa have been more temperate in the relevent era than previously described.

Proponents of the idea that homnids developed on savanna/plains have been able to bring a lot of paleontological evidence to support their theories.

However, whilst the ideas of 'aquatic ape proponents' sound almost more intuitive and logical than the ideas of 'savanna ape proponents' at first glance, proponents of the hypothesis are missing the most important evidence needed to prove their argument - which is fossils of a homnid that lived in such close association with large bodies of water.

Until this evidence is produced the aquatic ape hypothesis can't really develop beyond the ideas originally sketched out by hardy in the 60s.

So the hypothesis hasn't been thrown out as she seems to claim - just sidelined whilst a more strongly supported hypothesis gets the attention and pays the dividends.

She also dodges a lot of common critiques, such as these from Wikipedia:

Quote:

[edit] Criticisms

Several theoretical problems have been found with the AAH, and some claims made by the AAH have been challenged as having explanations aside from a period of aquatic adaptation.[8]
[edit] Theoretical considerations

The AAH has been criticized for containing multiple inconsistencies, and lacking evidence from the fossil record to support its claims.[8][27] It is also described as lacking parsimony despite purporting to be a simple theory uniting many of the unique anatomical features of humans.[8]
Though describing the theory as plausible, Henry Gee went on to criticize it for being untestable, as most of the evolutionary adaptations described by Morgan would not have fossilized. Gee also stated that while purely aquatic mammals such as whales show strong skeletal evidence of adaptation to water, humans and human fossils lack such adaptations; that there are many hypothetical and equally plausible scenarios explaining the unique characteristics of human adaptation without involving an aquatic phase of evolution; and that proponents are basing arguments about past adaptations on present physiology, when humans are not significantly aquatic.[28] There is ultimately only circumstantial evidence to suggest, and no solid evidence to support the AAH.[29][30] ScienceBlogs author Greg Laden has described the AAH as a "human evolution theory of everything" that attempts to explain all anatomical and physiological features of humans, and is correct in some areas only by chance. Laden also states that the AAH was proposed when knowledge of human evolutionary history was unclear, while more recent research has found that many human traits have emerged at different times over millions of years, rather than simultaneously due to a single evolutionary pressure.[9]
[edit] Habitat

Morgan presented the AAH as an alternative to the "savanna model", which uses very vague descriptive statements portraying protohumans as moving out from forested environments and into a hot dry savanna. However, this idea has been called a caricature of the actual environments in which protohumans are thought to have evolved, and presents a false dichotomy as more recent theories propose a tree or forest-based habitat providing the driving forces for adaptation,[29] and a straw man of the actual theories and arguments used in the study of paleoanthropology. Morgan further criticized scientists for admitting they were uncertain regarding the reasons for the development of hairlessness, bipedalism, brain size and speech. This ignores the fact that science legitimately admits ignorance when it is unclear and that a lack of "final answers" does not legitimate a competing theory by default. [8]
The belief that wading into shallow water would help proto-humans avoid dry-land predation discounts the risks presented by aquatic animals such as crocodiles and hippopotamuses that present a current risk to Africans living near bodies of water,[31] and that protohumans lacked the fangs, claws or size to defend themselves from these threats.[32] In addition, humans lack immune system defences to protect against waterborne parasites.[32]
[edit] Anatomical and physiological claims

  • Hairlessness - Most aquatic mammals that are comparably sized to humans are not hairless, but have dense, insulating fur and swim very well, with fatty layers beneath the skin.[31] Aquatic mammals do not vary greatly in their body hair, while humans do.[9] Hairless skin is also only an advantage for fully-aquatic mammals that dive, swim quickly or migrate long distances such as whales and dolphins,[32] and only appears and is an advantage for extremely large aquatic mammals who would overheat with large amounts of body hair, who are fully-aquatic and have evolved as an aquatic species for millions of years. The loss of body hair is also explainable through a lower parasite load, and maintenance through sexual selection.[33] Furthermore, while shaving human swimmers to eliminate the little body hair that remains results in a minor decrease in drag,[34][35] this cannot be extrapolated to a beneficial effect of loss of a full coat of fur, which has been shown to have superior drag reduction ability.[36] While relative hairlessness and hair direction is cited as an adaptation to swimming and diving, there is no evidence of similar skeletal or soft tissue adaptations that are expected to accompany such adaptations.[8]
  • Breath control - The position, evolutionary timing of changes, and size of the nerve openings in the vertebra suggest that breath control in humans improved because of the increased complexity and use of speech rather than an aquatic phase of evolution.[37] In addition, breath control is thought to be preceded by bipedalism, which frees the muscles around the upper torso from locomotion and allows breathing rates to occur independent of locomotion. Voluntary speech is thought to be a sufficient evolutionary pressure to explain breath control, independent of other explanations. The vocalizations of dolphins and other aquatic species are not thought to be comparable to humans. In addition, certain birds have speech and breath control comparable to humans, without a phase of aquatic adaptation.[8]
  • Diving reflex - the mammalian diving reflex is more easily explained as a reaction to hypothermia than underwater swimming.[38]
  • Diet - a broad terrestrial diet would ensure sufficient access to required essential fatty acids without a high consumption of seafood[39] and the "best" fats found in fish are from cold water fish that did not occupy the same costal environments as humans. In addition, the requirements of these fats are very minimal, with no evidence that extra fats would result in an evolutionary pressure towards a larger brain. Humans without access to shoreline foods also develop normal brains.[40][8]
  • Body fat - the subcutaneous fat distribution in humans is more similar to a domesticated animal than an aquatic one, and is nearly identical to that of other primates. The subcutaneous fat of aquatic mammals and humans also seems to serve different uses - it forms the streamlined shape of seals, while in humans it is used for sexual selection.[41][42] In addition, the distribution of fat and blood vessels allows for improved thermoregulation, as hot blood from the body can bypass the fat to radiate heat through the skin.[8]
  • Bipedalism - the disadvantages cited for bipedalism within the AAH are often the result of comparing humans to medium, terrestrial quadrupeds, but human evolution never included a period of quadrupedal locomotion. Instead, human evolution features mainly brachiation, suspension and climbing as the primary method of transportation, with a gradual increase in bipedal locomotion over time. In addition, the elongated lower limbs of humans, which is explained as improving swimming speeds, appears only after the evolution of the Homo genus.[8] Brachiating apes are more commonly bipedal than are ground-dwelling ones, and of aquatic species only birds travel bipedally on land. Also, the human fossil record demonstrates a gradual adaptation from tree-dwelling to bipedalism rather than an abrupt transition to an aquatic environment.[42]
  • Descended larynx - the human larynx is not shaped like the larynxes of aquatic animals; it forms and descends as an infant begins to speak, making it easier to aspirate water and drown. Additionally, a descended larynx is not unique to aquatic animals, and permanently or temporarily descended larynxes are seen in dogs, pigs, goats, monkeys,[43] big cats,[44] deer,[45] and young chimps.[46] Mainstream anthropology explain the descended larynx as an adaptation to improve vocalizations by increasing the number of pronounceable vowels and improving the ability of humans to control their speech.[8]
  • Nose shape - the shape of the human nose is extremely variable within the species, and believed to be related to climactic adaptations and the warming and moistening of air before it enters the respiratory tract, not to prevent water entry while swimming. In addition, the muscles surrounding the nose show no evidence of having been previously more developed, but are part of a complex of muscles that are specially developed in humans to show emotion and aid in communication.[8]
  • Interdigital webbing - syndactylism, the presence of webbing between the fingers, is a birth defect, not an adaptation, that is found in both humans and apes.[42][8]
  • Sebaceous gland - many aquatic animals have rudimentary or no sebaceous glands. In humans, sebaceous glands become active during puberty with men having far more than women while women have much better scent receptors. This suggests the glands are sexually dimorphic for sexual selection rather than waterproofing. In seals that use sebaceous glands for waterproofing, the glands are active from birth and are secreted by hard, keratinized skin that is very different from human skin.[47] [8]
  • Swimming - humans are inefficient swimmers, with shapes that are not well suited to rapid travel through water.[48] Swimming is also a learned trait, and though babies are able to propel themselves inefficiently through water, they are unable to lift their faces to breathe.[42] Human eyes do not see well underwater, and human skin is not waterproof (as demonstrated by the "pruning" of the fingertips when submerged for long periods).[38]
Generally the evidence provided for the AAH is equally well accounted for by land-based adaptations without needing to posit an aquatic phase of human development. In addition, the AAH is contradictory in several places; the AAH theorizes humans developed some unique skin features due to adaptation to water, but other features emerged after leaving the habitat, and the specialization that is hypothesized for an aquatic life are uneven, with humans lacking many truly specialized features of aquatic species (such as head shape, repositioned nostrils and streamlining of the body). Parallels made by proponents of the AAH between humans and the proboscis monkey, which shows mainly behavioral adaptations to a water-based habitat, contradicts any claims of anatomical evidence for the theory.[8]
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:02 pm
@memester,
memester;109851 wrote:
.using 2009 poll ( as compared to Dawkins' 2004 cited numbers), shows total non-believers in Evolution ( based on one common interpretation of "Evolution" ) at 25 %, the religious adsorbing Evolution at a fast clip."
Survey results are strongly dependent on exact wording and the choices offered as well as the population surveyed.

"Evolution at its most pared down, simplest definition, is about allele frequencies in a population and how they change over time." Aedes

I suppose I would say evolution is the notion that more complex life forms develop from simpler life forms over time. (less emphasis on purely genetic factors).
As opposed to the notion that species are fixed, immutable and all "created" through miraculous intervention at roughly the same time- creationism.

I do not think that "evolution" in its most basic presentation is really the problem in America. Most Americans are still religious and most Americans still wish to give God credit for creation in some manner. The problem is the packaging of evolution with certain philosophical assertions about evolution as a blind, random, aimless process and implying that the universe is both indifferent and purposeless. It is the latter assertions that run counter to religious notions about God as creator.

If evolution is presented as just the facts in biology and in a religious setting evolution is presented as "gods method or process for creation" a lot of the resistance disappears. In this regard Dawkins type presentation of the "Blind Watchmaker", "The Selfish Gene", "The God Delusion" is really not helpful and unfortunately Dawkins has become the spokesperson for evolution in modern culture.

In truth science does not impute or deny purposes or aims in the process of evolution. Atheism however has adopted "evolution" as one of its proofs of the absence of evidence for god and divine activity in the world and thus hindered the acceptance of the scientific theory of evolution. (Guilt by association). Evolution is now strongly associated with atheism in popular culture. This is a conceptual error but the loud voices on both sides are only confirming this conviction among the common population.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:13 pm
@Emil,
Emil;109837 wrote:
It's a primarily american forum. Americans don't like evolution. They are pretty far behind... It's good that I live in Denmark, top 2. Smile

Yea. All that says is we're open minded! In the words of the great American philosopher... um... uh... I'm sure there is one.

I'll get back to you on that.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:20 pm
@prothero,
prothero;109879 wrote:
I suppose I would say evolution is the notion that more complex life forms develop from simpler life forms over time. (less emphasis on purely genetic factors).

I think the problem with this veiw is that it tends to promote the ideas that organisms of the Triassic, for example, were less 'complex' (a troublesome word in itself as you might soon see) than those today.

Whereas, per capita speaking, most organisms alive today are far more 'simple' than dinosaurs, or amonites and so on.

The problem seems to me to be an anthrocentric one - we humans tend to credit ourselves with ultimate complexity. Monkeys are more like us than snakes or cuttlefish are - ergo they must be more complex.

But we are no more 'evolved' than any other organism alive today (with the possible exception of the odd living fossil). There are organisms that have evolved to parasitise us - so they must be more recent than us, but I doubt you'd find them more complex than us.

So this view is probably just chauvanism. Rice has more DNA than dogs do - what's up with that?

BBC News | SCI/TECH | Puncturing the ego gene

Complexity isn't a straitforward thing, and assuming DNA adds complexity isn't actually evident.

"Evolution describes common descent of all living things" - how's that?
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:29 pm
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;109884 wrote:
Complexity isn't a straitforward thing, and assuming DNA adds complexity isn't actually evident.

"Evolution describes common descent of all living things" - how's that?
I agree. Complexity is a problematic term. "common descent" although not without its own problems might be a better term. I just try to avoid to much emphasis on pure genetics , the notion of "random" mutation and the notion of "blindness" in natural selection. They are all problematic interpretations of evolution. Darwin's evolutionary theory of course contained none of these philosophical interpretations as he was pretty much unaware of genetics.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:39 pm
@prothero,
prothero;109885 wrote:
Atheism however has adopted "evolution" as one of its proofs of the absence of evidence for god and divine activity in the world and thus hindered the acceptance of the scientific theory of evolution.

As far as I am aware the first major conflict between evolution and religion in the US was the Scopes trial in Kansas - which was nothing much to do with atheism as far as I can see. Rather, the right to teach science as science and seperate church and state. There weren't any atheist players in that fight as far as I know (possible exception of Mencken I suppose).

Indeed - I have heard some claim that evolution's description of whites and blacks sharing common ancestry was a hot topic in the American South at the time - as some religious authorities justified segregation on account of negroes being "beasts of the field" rather than true humans.

The recent publishing phenomenon for pop atheist books hasn't got much to do with evolution. However evolution gets rolled out by necessity pretty much every time popular arguments against atheism are articulated, because without evolution there isn't really a good secular answer for why life exists in the complex interweave that it does.


prothero;109885 wrote:
I agree. Complexity is a problematic term. "common descent" although not without its own problems might be a better term. I just try to avoid to much emphasis on pure genetics , the notion of "random" mutation and the notion of "blindness" in natural selection. They are all problematic interpretations of evolution.

I'm not sure how you mean 'problematic'.

They aren't particularly concilatory terms, I suppose.

And I don't think 'random' is really used without an awful lot of context these days.
0 Replies
 
memester
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:55 pm
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;109877 wrote:
These aren't Dawkins' numbers are they?


That's the chart Dawkins uses in his new book release promotional video. so my comment was for those seeing the numbers from his presentation on "The Educational Disgrace". People are bringing up the older 40 % number for the U.S., rather than the 25 %, as from 2009 Gallup.

---------- Post added 12-10-2009 at 05:05 PM ----------

Dave Allen;109877 wrote:

She's being sensationalist in this, I think. The "dictat" of "thou shalt not believe in aquatic theory" doesn't really exist, and her list of authorities who do support Alister Hardy's hypothesis proves that it isn't exactly biological heresy.
How does a list of supposed heretics prove there is no heresy ?
Emil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:09 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;109881 wrote:
Emil;109837 wrote:
It's a primarily american forum. Americans don't like evolution. They are pretty far behind... It's good that I live in Denmark, top 2. Smile

Yea. All that says is we're open minded! In the words of the great American philosopher... um... uh... I'm sure there is one.

I'll get back to you on that.


Pierce I suppose. It's the only candidate I can think of. And Quine.

Wiki'ing it...

Newer times.. Lewis, Searle, Davidson.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:11 pm
@memester,
memester;109891 wrote:
How does a list of supposed heretics prove there is no heresy ?

Well, that isn't what I meant - I meant her claims - made in the video you linked to - that there was a charge of heresy throughout the scientific community on Aquatic Ape Hypothesis were overcooked.

I don't think the people on the list are assumed by anyone to be heretics.

I certainly wouldn't deem them so.

Who is calling David Attenborough or Daniel Dennet a heretic on this issue?

They like it - that's their right isn't it?

If they went about saying "that's it - case closed - aquatic ancestors for the win" that might be taking things too far based on current arguments.

But they just reckon "nice idea - might have some merit" and say so.

Ms Morgan, on the other hand, seems to want to bypass the scientific method in preference to her prejudices.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:16 pm
@memester,
Well, sea urchins, I believe, have a genotype about as complex as h. sapiens (correct me if I am wrong.) But I am proudly anthropocentric - I think humans are a more advanced species that sea urchins (or t. rex, or rice) because (a) we can do more stuff and (b) we can reflect on the nature of existence, which none of the of the others can do. And I think it is a meaningful distinction. Perhaps the more biologically-inclined contributors don't want to acknowledge this because it 'sounds metaphysical'. What do you think?
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:32 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;109907 wrote:
Well, sea urchins, I believe, have a genotype about as complex as h. sapiens (correct me if I am wrong.) But I am proudly anthropocentric - I think humans are a more advanced species that sea urchins (or t. rex, or rice) because (a) we can do more stuff and (b) we can reflect on the nature of existence, which none of the of the others can do. And I think it is a meaningful distinction. Perhaps the more biologically-inclined contributors don't want to acknowledge this because it 'sounds metaphysical'. What do you think?

I think it is a good example of the somewhat weak association between "genes" and "behaviors". Darwin of course had no idea where the phenotypic or behavioral variation came from. We may place too much emphasis on genes in evolution. Darwin had the idea of natural selection for survival, adaptablity and procreation. Natural selection is anything but "blind", random or purposeless.
In any event it is easy to confuse "causes" and "effects".
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:36 pm
@memester,
but surely it can be seen that there is a definite distinction between h. sapiens, with language skills, abstract reasoning ability, and all of his(her) advanced cognitive facilities and other species? I don't understand why evolutionary biologists seem so unwilling to recognise this distinction. It seems fundamental to me, as fundamental as any other distinction in any other branch of science.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:38 pm
@memester,
As the premiere scientific explanation of our origins it strikes me that evolution is often pressed into double service as a metaphysical or psychological consolation - ergo we anthrocentrise.

I doubt anyone doesn't do this to some degree (by which I mean - privately entertain the idea that humans are very special for whatever reason).

But it does get in the way of actually understanding it.

(To compare with gravity - most people don't think gravity is particularly for sticking things down so humans can use them and not fly into space - they don't bang on about it like that, at least - but evolution is seen as somehow coming up short for not stating we are some sort of end or pinnacle).
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:49 pm
@memester,
but that is an effect of the cultural context in which this whole debate is taking place. The 'theory of gravity' is not being advanced as the basis for an entire outlook on existence, which the theory of evolution often is.
0 Replies
 
 

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