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What is religion?

 
 
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 04:22 am
@Didymos Thomas,
"Religion is any set of teachings and traditions that include myth and ritual, understood by the adherents to provide guidance in the interpretation of their existence and how they ought to live."

Didymos Thomas wrote:
I think this one is close, but I sense some deficiencies. I'd like to hear your thoughts first, though.


I really can't think of a way I would revise it. What do you have in mind? Too broad? Too narrow?
0 Replies
 
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 04:43 am
@hammersklavier,
"Religion is any set of teachings and traditions that include myth and ritual, understood by the adherents to provide guidance in the interpretation of their existence and how they ought to live."

"Law lacks some of the attributes..."

hammersklavier wrote:
How do you mean?


Sorry for the tardy response. I see law as pretty narrowly restricted to simply defining what is the legal and the illegal. Nor does it include mythology. Nor does it propose to help us interpret our existence. So it would seem to not enter into certain enormous realms of our our lives that are the focus of religion.
hammersklavier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:38 am
@Dichanthelium,
Dichanthelium wrote:
"Religion is any set of teachings and traditions that include myth and ritual, understood by the adherents to provide guidance in the interpretation of their existence and how they ought to live."

That is easily the best definition I've heard so far! I throw my previous definition out the window in favor of this one. What is it, a dictionary definition?
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:24 am
@hammersklavier,
hammersklavier wrote:
That is easily the best definition I've heard so far! I throw my previous definition out the window in favor of this one. What is it, a dictionary definition?


Not directly from any dictionary, but maybe a synthesis of various ones. Let's see how it stands up to scrutiny. For example, your earlier emphasis on the role of prayer or meditation is undoubtedly a key element and may not be adequately covered by "ritual." Also, I'm still wondering about this "sacred" vs. "profane" concept. My working definition may not capture that, and thus it may not adequately separate religion from, say, folklore in certain cultures.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:35 pm
@Dichanthelium,
Dichanthelium wrote:
"Religion is any set of teachings and traditions that include myth and ritual, understood by the adherents to provide guidance in the interpretation of their existence and how they ought to live."

I really can't think of a way I would revise it. What do you have in mind? Too broad? Too narrow?


Too narrow. I'm not sure the above definition can account for the appearance of new religion due to the reliance upon tradition. Of course, religion typically does rely upon tradition, but what happens when a teacher comes along who's message does not rely upon some tradition?
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:02 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Too narrow. I'm not sure the above definition can account for the appearance of new religion due to the reliance upon tradition. Of course, religion typically does rely upon tradition, but what happens when a teacher comes along who's message does not rely upon some tradition?


Yes, good point. What if we try this:

"Religion is any set of teachings and practices understood by the adherents to provide insight concerning the ultimate meaning of existence and guidance concerning how they ought to live."
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:12 pm
@Dichanthelium,
Is the above definition too broad?

For example, Arthur Schopenhauer provided teachings and practices that provide insight into the meaning of existence, guidance on how to live.
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2009 01:01 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Is the above definition too broad?

For example, Arthur Schopenhauer provided teachings and practices that provide insight into the meaning of existence, guidance on how to live.


It reminds me of a question that I often ponder. Why did not a religion grow out of the teachings and practices of Socrates? He even had a supernatural endorsement from the oracle at Delphi, and he died a martyr. My hypothesis is that the Socratic approach never became popular, perhaps because it requires too much mental discipline and/or creates a frame of mind that conflicts with one's day to day responsibilities.

So, maybe the teachings and practices have to rise to some level of popularity before we begin to think of them as belonging to a religion.

Let's try this:

"Religion is any more or less popular and enduring set of teachings and practices understood by the adherents to provide insight concerning the ultimate meaning of existence and guidance concerning how they ought to live."
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Mar, 2009 08:33 pm
@Dichanthelium,
Dichanthelium wrote:
It reminds me of a question that I often ponder. Why did not a religion grow out of the teachings and practices of Socrates? He even had a supernatural endorsement from the oracle at Delphi, and he died a martyr. My hypothesis is that the Socratic approach never became popular, perhaps because it requires too much mental discipline and/or creates a frame of mind that conflicts with one's day to day responsibilities.


An immensely interesting question!

Robert Thurman (eminent western scholar of Buddhism, the first westerner to be ordained as a Tibetan Buddhist monk) argues that Buddhism is not a religion.

If we look at the Socratic method, it is the precursor to Aristotle's logic. One could argue that the traditional of Greek philosophy, which is an Axial Age development just as the Buddha's teachings, was the same sort of movement: what it lacked was an organizer. That seems to be the most prominent difference; the Buddha managed to get significant support from the emerging merchant class as well as the ruling elites and the Buddha also managed to enrapture a large number of disciples.

Where Socrates was a teacher and martyr, the Buddha was a teacher and organizer.

I do not think the Socratic method can accurately be said to require any more mental discipline than any other related practice. Monks, in every tradition, often develop rigorous mental practices.

Dichanthelium wrote:
So, maybe the teachings and practices have to rise to some level of popularity before we begin to think of them as belonging to a religion.

Let's try this:

"Religion is any more or less popular and enduring set of teachings and practices understood by the adherents to provide insight concerning the ultimate meaning of existence and guidance concerning how they ought to live."


The problem here is that we would then have to admit that Christianity is a religion, but would not be a religion if it never gained popularity. Maybe that is accurate considering the way we use the word, if we are to include Buddhism in the category 'religion'.

I am beginning to wonder if this term religion really does not mean very much at all...
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2009 04:42 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
I do not think the Socratic method can accurately be said to require any more mental discipline than any other related practice. Monks, in every tradition, often develop rigorous mental practices.


I guess that's probably right. It is odd, though, how rarely we humans seem to employ his attitude.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
The problem here is that we would then have to admit that Christianity is a religion, but would not be a religion if it never gained popularity. Maybe that is accurate considering the way we use the word, if we are to include Buddhism in the category 'religion'.

I am beginning to wonder if this term religion really does not mean very much at all...


If Christianity had never become popular, but instead had died out, then it seems to me that we would not look at it as a separate religion, but rather as a cult within Judaism (which, I think, technically what it really is anyway).

What if we were to include in the definition something about salvation? Although concepts vary among religions, most seem to indicate that humans seek to be saved in some way from something, whether from sin or from the cycle of rebirth, for example.
Tonfish
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 May, 2009 06:59 am
@Dichanthelium,
I'm not sure if we are looking for a description to religion, or we try to understand it's purpose and how humans need it. Because it needs to have a purpose. Only those who are believers in a religion can say that: "it doesn't have a purpose, nor does God has a purpose, it's just there." But the non-believers must have explanations to what it is.

As far as I know, religion (and I'm talking about all the "religions" from shamanism in the tribes to christianity) is an always changing explanation for the natural laws and the universe' mechanics which, we cannot explain any other way. Ancient tribes and countries believed in "natural gods" because they couldn't understand it nor the creation of life, aka "the beginning", nor the end and death. They believed for example: water is a god, because they couldn't explain why it's changing. And as humans understood the nature's laws more and more old religions started to disappear, and new religions have evolved. The human mind cannot accept that it's limited, in addition we fear that we don't know. Religion gives explanations to the things we don't know, so we won't fear them anymore. As long as the human mind cannot accept that there is no beginning, and no end to the universe, and that the universe and time is limitless, we will need religions (If we believe or say that we don't, we will believe in something). I've read an other topic wich caught my eye the other day. It was about how man will always ask the question: why? / what is the cause?. I think it's much about the same here. We'll always ask why, no matter what is the answer, we believe that everything has a cause, our minds cannot accept that the things are just there (only a few of us can accept that, those who accept the teachings of a religion). So, final conclusion of mine: religion is a couple of answers for humans about all the stuff that we don't understand or explain othervise.
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 05:23 pm
@Tonfish,
Tonfish wrote:
I'm not sure if we are looking for a description to religion, or we try to understand it's purpose and how humans need it. Because it needs to have a purpose. Only those who are believers in a religion can say that: "it doesn't have a purpose, nor does God has a purpose, it's just there." But the non-believers must have explanations to what it is.

As far as I know, religion (and I'm talking about all the "religions" from shamanism in the tribes to christianity) is an always changing explanation for the natural laws and the universe' mechanics which, we cannot explain any other way. Ancient tribes and countries believed in "natural gods" because they couldn't understand it nor the creation of life, aka "the beginning", nor the end and death. They believed for example: water is a god, because they couldn't explain why it's changing. And as humans understood the nature's laws more and more old religions started to disappear, and new religions have evolved. The human mind cannot accept that it's limited, in addition we fear that we don't know. Religion gives explanations to the things we don't know, so we won't fear them anymore. As long as the human mind cannot accept that there is no beginning, and no end to the universe, and that the universe and time is limitless, we will need religions (If we believe or say that we don't, we will believe in something). I've read an other topic wich caught my eye the other day. It was about how man will always ask the question: why? / what is the cause?. I think it's much about the same here. We'll always ask why, no matter what is the answer, we believe that everything has a cause, our minds cannot accept that the things are just there (only a few of us can accept that, those who accept the teachings of a religion). So, final conclusion of mine: religion is a couple of answers for humans about all the stuff that we don't understand or explain othervise.


I'm looking for a definition, which is distinct from (though commonly confused with) a description.

I'm inclined to agree that a purpose or perceived need for religion may help us propose a definition or definitions.

Your conclusion, which focuses on the inexplicable, is a significant aspect, but religion also deals thoroughly with the explicable, doesn't it? For example, most religions supply explication that coincides with observations made by philosophers, psychologists, historians, politicians, etc. Examine, for example, the proposition, "Murder is wrong." Jews and Christians would say that murder is wrong because human beings are made in the image of God. Therefore, each individual must be viewed as a distinct creation of and a manifestation of the ultimate source of life and beauty and mystery of the universe. Other religions would explain the wrongness of murder in ways that reflect this same reverence for fellow human beings. But even the irreligious or non-religious among us would probably concur that murder is wrong for reasons that may ultimately coincide with the religious ones, though they may couch it in less religious terms.
0 Replies
 
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2009 07:31 pm
@Dichanthelium,
I think your right but too add, some religions seem to be a way of explanation for some things. In addition it also was for people you needed something to believe in, to follow, to live their life by.
0 Replies
 
Tonfish
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 03:32 am
@Dichanthelium,
Dichantelium: you may be right about that, but aren't these laws just describing every human's instinctive behavior? People who don't believe behave just the same way as religious people, f.e: don't murder. These laws are only to supply humans with a "how-to" book for life. Unnecessarily, because humans already know these laws when they born. And yeah, some religions have more strict laws than others (my statement goes for average), but in general everyone lives day by day subconsciuosly keeping these laws. Only thing about religion that it's always changing.

People understand more and more about the universe, about nature: so religions based on nature almost deisappeared. Only thing we cannot answer is the beginning and the end, that's why average people think that religion is a specification about how the universe was born, and how it'll end. I don't know if we'll ever get to know what really happened, or if it was really a creation of a god, but if mankind will find the answer to that, it's just natural that religions will no longer be necessary. But of course here comes the question: If we'll find the answer about the creation to the universe, and the answer is X, then what caused X and why, and then we'll get another answer: Y, and other questions. Of course at that time religions will change again, or completetly new ones will come up explaining the cause again, and again. There'll be no end for questioning the "how" and "why", so my conclusion is: mankind needs religions to understand what science cannot answer. And these religions will always answer every question without failure. So we can be relaxed, we don't have to worry about these stupid questions, religion is here to keep us relaxed. Religious people are much more balanced, they aren't disturbed all the time, they don't stress about these things, because they are given an answer and they believe in that blindly. Lucky them
0 Replies
 
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 08:27 pm
@Dichanthelium,
I agree that that core meaning of religion is to find a purpose to your life. Give your life a meaning, which is very understandable. I think some religions back in the day, sadly, were also ways to manipulate, control, and take advantage of people. Now i don't want to be offensive and realizes this doesn't relate to all religion. Another proposed cause of religion was to have something that people could have faith and beleive in that would always be there. When everything seems to be going wrong, religion is still there and will not fail on you. The last theory of religion is that in many instances religion was used to explain natural phenomenom. This was before the days of science, and people needed explanations and answers, religion provided it for them and this idea carries over into the present which is why some people still beleive in creationism and not evolution even though the facts supporting each side are zero to numerous. Religion also provides a set of moral to follow and life your life by which the founders thought would make people better. Heaven was a great inscentive for this and made many people be strictly moral, which wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

For me at least, i can seperate the religion part from the moral/philospohy part and i understand there are different aspects of religions. There are some religion that are very close to being a philosophy or way of life. Then there are some religions who have what i said above with some morals thrown in.
0 Replies
 
the wise one phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 May, 2009 07:46 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
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And religious people do not doubt? Are they never taught to doubt? It seems to me that, not only do religious people doubt and question what they are taught, but that sometimes religious people are compelled/advised/taught by their faith tradition and spiritual mentors to doubt and question their faith.

Religious people do doubt and criticize their holy texts. Religious people do create new problems and produce new contemplations: how else do you think religion has managed to change over time?[/QUOTE]

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religious people are not skeptical they swallow religion belief hook line and sinker religion make a fool of humanity it is killing the mind if humanity and enslaving the human mind and soul religion put human mind in spirutual bondage it is philosophy that free the human mind it set human mind free from spritual bondage

religion kill human conscience it deny humanity to express is mind with the threat of hellfire religion is as take control of human mind people believe more in the word of religious cleric than philosophiers logic
0 Replies
 
 

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