A perfect god can not exist?

If someone thinks "Raping toddlers is wrong" he is clearly mistaken.

Could you, in principle, build a machine that detected wrongness without simply hard-coding it with all the output values you want to register for different inputs?

We can build machines that measure height. We all agree in advance that the machines measure height. So, when we use the machines on something and they tell us the height, we have settled it. If you thought the height was different, you were wrong. The same does not work for wrongness.

the values are hard coded. So what. Why should it have to? I already provided you with Vitali sets which are not measurable or countable.

Well, I have to disagree with you. I think it's very wrong.

If you say X is wrong and you really mean X is in this list of things you've preprogrammed then that's ad hoc.

right and wrong are hard wired in the sense that they exist outside of human subjectivity. The whole world could think X is right and X could actually be wrong. Take slavery for example.

Yes it does. If someone thinks "Raping toddlers is wrong" he is clearly mistaken. His conscience is not functioning like it ought to be functioning. Similarly, a blind disabled man cannot determine the height of a building. The conscience is the measuring stick in moral judgments, just as the eyes and the arms are the means to measure the height of the building.

right and wrong are hard wired in the sense that they exist outside of human subjectivity. The whole world could think X is right and X could actually be wrong

I can't believe you're still arguing this.

Just agree that Night Ripper is making an error in thinking otherwise. He doesn't have any good argument for it anyway. Argument over.

Just because you use your consciousness to measure something it does not mean that the consciousness is accurate. If you ask people to judge how tall a building is, how many of them will get it right? Not all of them. So is that consciousness reliable enough to gauge right or wrong?

Also the consciousness can be misled by mistakenly interpreting an experience. People do it all the time, they believe they see something which they really are not seeing. It comes down to imagination and subjective response to the data input.

Which makes moral values subjective like I have been saying.

No, what I meant is that measuring height means applying a rule. A laser bounces to one end of the object and back and we measure the length of time blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc. It's not like we have a device that has the Statue of Liberty in there preprogrammed for 305ft and a different value for every different object. That would be rather suspect as a device for objective measurement.

The same goes for wrongness. You need to apply some kind of rule rather than just listing rape, murder, etc. The rule needs to be something we agree on in advance. In the case for height. We agree what height is and how to measure it so there's no contention. For wrongness, well, it doesn't seem to be a feature of the world like height is.

I gotta go to bed soon. But I am perplexed at the very notion of moral relativity. I can think of no benefit other than removing one's own accountability.

I gotta go to bed soon. But I am perplexed at the very notion of moral relativity. I can think of no benefit other than removing one's own accountability.

Just because there is no objective moral value, it does not mean you can't have accountability. If a group of people feel strongly enough that a person has done wrong, it is up to them to correct or inform them of their "mistake".

It is nothing different than teaching your child, the lessons you want them to understand so they can function within your group with the least amount of problems.

No where does it make actions unaccountable.

Just because there is no objective moral value, it does not mean you can't have accountability. If a group of people feel strongly enough that a person has done wrong, it is up to them to correct or inform them of their "mistake".

How do you know what color something is.....you see it..

But I don't suppose that the color I see is the "official" color. Some people are color blind and some can see extra colors. They see the world differently than I do but just as valid.

is it not obvious and "measurable" that colorblind people are lacking in a physical trait?

How can you "correct" someone who is not wrong???

I do so based on emotions. I won't let you rape and murder around me, not because I think it's wrong but because I'll explode with anger. Emotions, most importantly empathy, are the key to morality.