0
   

A perfect god can not exist?

 
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 12:57 pm
@Extrain,
Please make your reply in plain English since that's the form my argument was given to you in. Also, please quote something I've actually said when you do so instead of making yet another straw man. I've asked you this before but for some reason you would rather make this more difficult.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 12:59 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158475 wrote:
Please make your reply in plain English since that's the form my argument was given to you in. Also, please quote something I've actually said when you do so instead of making yet another straw man. I've asked you this before but for some reason you would rather make this more difficult.


Please stop using two senses "it is true that." It carries only one meaning within a linguistic framework not two. You can't talk about what is true or false in other frameworks if you are in a framework for which "Killing Jews is right" is false.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 01:04 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158477 wrote:
Please stop using two senses "it is true that." It carries only one meaning within a linguistic framework not two. You can't talk about what is true or false in other frameworks if you are in a framework.


Linguistic framework? No, these are cultural-ethical frameworks.

Like I said, I am only committed to the claim that all ethical truth values are relative. You're the one that started talking about things that are true from within the context of a cultural-ethical framework we aren't in, namely WWII Germany. If it was true in that framework then so be it. That doesn't mean it has to be true in my framework. Which is good since it's not.

*Yawn* and here we are back at the start. You should just cut and paste your arguments instead of retyping them each time you wish to repeat them. I might start to do the same.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 01:09 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158480 wrote:
Linguistic framework? No, these are cultural-ethical frameworks.

Like I said, I am only committed to the claim that all ethical truth values are relative. You're the one that started talking about things that are true from within the context of a cultural-ethical framework we aren't in, namely WWII Germany. If it was true in that framework then so be it. That doesn't mean it has to be true in my framework. Which is good since it's not.


You simply don't get it: Objectivity within frameworks is just that, objectivity--there simply aren't any relative moral jugments within moral/cultural frameworks.

Therefore, "In Germany, Killing Jews is right" is literally false within Modern USA, simply because american culture believes that it is false. You can believe this statement is true, but it's actually false in the modern USA cultural framework.

So,

"P and ~(S)~P" is true in W, and,

"P and (S)~P" is false in W.

---------- Post added 04-30-2010 at 01:50 PM ----------

Objective Moral relativism is the thesis that, within the Modern USA:

"In WWII Germany, killing Jews is right" is false because it is equivalent in propositional content to,

"Killing Jews is right"--which is false.

But you are maintaining that, within the Modern USA,

"In WWII Germany, killing Jews is right" is true in the Modern USA. Not so: it is false within Modern USA or at least completely truth-valueless.

So you can maintain "all moral truths are relative to culture" all you want. But "In WWII Germany, killing Jews is right" is false or truth-valueless (since there is no fact of the matter about it) because people in the Modern USA believe that it is false. Objective moral judgments are not relative moral judgments within a culture. So MMR is either false or truth-valueless. So if MMR is true then, necessarily, "In WWII Germany, killing Jews is right" is false in the Modern USA.

Therefore, Night Ripper, what you are saying is actually false right now...lol. What reason do I have to believe you? After all, my culture says Killing Jews in WWII Germany was wrong is true, so your thinking that "Killing Jews in WWII Germany is right is true" is false.

I've never seen someone so blind as to what his own assertion says.:rolleyes:
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 02:16 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158482 wrote:
Therefore, "In Germany, Killing Jews is right" is literally false within Modern USA, simply because american culture believes that it is false.


No, modern USA culture believes "killing Jews is right" is false. That says nothing about whether or not "in the context of WWII Germany killing Jews was right" is true.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 02:19 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158503 wrote:
No, modern USA culture believes "killing Jews is right" is false. That says nothing about whether or not "in the context of WWII Germany killing Jews was right" is true.


But no one believes that it was right in Germany and wrong in the USA. The Culture as a whole believes it is wrong in Germany and Wrong in the USA. Therefore, it is wrong in Germany too. That is what an Objective moral judgment is. Are you now maintaining that moral relativism is not an objective thesis about what is really true and false within a culture?...sounds like a self-refutation to me! MMR is empty. You can maintain the existence of pink elephants exist all you want, but no one is obligated to take you seriously.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 03:09 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158506 wrote:
But no one believes that it was right in Germany and wrong in the USA.


That's the entire point of relativism. Some people argue that if you would have been in Hitler's shoes, it really would have been right for you to do just as he did, even though, now, in your own shoes, it really would be wrong to do as he did.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 03:18 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158515 wrote:
That's the entire point of relativism. Some people argue that if you would have been in Hitler's shoes, it really would have been right for you to do just as he did, even though, now, in your own shoes, it really would be wrong to do as he did.


Actually, most people argue that if they were in Hitler's shoes they could never do such a thing, and that it is still wrong for Hilter to have done that no matter what the circumstances in WWII Germany. What's your point? That's not a good argument for relativism.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 03:20 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158520 wrote:
Some people also argue that if they were in Hitler's shoes they could never do such a thing, and that it is still wrong for Hilter to have done that no matter what the circumstances in WWII Germany. What's your point? That's not a good argument for relativism.


I'm only arguing that it's logically consistent. Whether or not it's true is another matter. The fact that some people disagree with relativism doesn't mean it results in a contradiction.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 03:23 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158523 wrote:
I'm only arguing that it's logically consistent. Whether or not it's true is another matter. The fact that some people disagree with relativism doesn't mean it results in a contradiction.


No, it is not logically consistent precisely because it results in a contradiction in cultural moral contexts. So there is no reason to believe it is true. If people believe cultural moral relativism is true in cultural moral contexts, they are believing something false.

That's why I keep saying, "If MMR is true, then it's false." All it takes is one counterexample from a culture who believes that what Hitler did in the context of WWII Germany to be morally wrong, that what Hitler did WAS, in fact, morally wrong in Germany--and then "all moral truths are relative" becomes false--since that is what MMR says, namely, what a culture believes to be morally wrong is, in fact, objectively morally wrong. So it is self-refuting.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 04:41 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158524 wrote:
All it takes is one counterexample from a culture who believes that what Hitler did in the context of WWII Germany to be morally wrong, that what Hitler did WAS, in fact, morally wrong in Germany


But they won't be making that judgment from the context of WWII Germany. They will be making it from the context of their own culture. What some other culture thinks doesn't reflect what the culture of WWII Germany thinks.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 05:10 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158560 wrote:
But they won't be making that judgment from the context of WWII Germany. They will be making it from the context of their own culture. What some other culture thinks doesn't reflect what the culture of WWII Germany thinks.


So what? That's right. All it takes is that one non-WWI-German culture believes what Hitler did was wrong, for it to be a fact that what Hitler did was wrong, and so MMR is false within that culture. So there is at least one culture where MMR is false in that culture. And if there is that one culture, then "all moral jugdments are true relative to culture" is false in some places--namely within cultures!

You act as if no one is within a culture when they make objective moral judgments. But everyone is within a culture when they make objective moral judgments.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 05:48 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158573 wrote:
So what? That's right. All it takes is that one non-WWI-German culture believes what Hitler did was wrong, for it to be a fact that what Hitler did was wrong, and so MMR is false within that culture. So there is at least one culture where MMR is false in that culture. And if there is that one culture, then "all moral jugdments are true relative to culture" is false in some places--namely within cultures!

You act as if no one is within a culture when they make objective moral judgments. But everyone is within a culture when they make objective moral judgments.


No, relativism isn't false within or without any cultures because relativism is a meta-ethical claim, not an ethical one.
0 Replies
 
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 05:49 pm
@Extrain,
Suppose there are two different cultures that believe the same thing, namely "Killing Jews in Germany is wrong." And I bet there are. If a culture believes a moral jugment is true, then it is true. Therefore, it is not the case that "all moral judgments are true relative to culture" is true, because two different cultures believe the same thing which is true in both cultures.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 05:50 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;158588 wrote:
Suppose there are two different cultures that believe the same thing, namely "Killing Jews in Germany is wrong." And I bet there are. If a culture believes a moral jugment is true, then it is true. Therefore, it is not the case that "all moral judgments are true relative to culture" is true, because two different cultures believe the same thing which is true in both cultures.


You're grasping at straws now. The fact that they are in agreement doesn't mean it's not relative.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 05:51 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158589 wrote:
You're grasping at straws now. The fact that they are in agreement doesn't mean it's not relative.


Oh, so the fact that people are sometimes in disagreement means moral truth is relative? My case is no less plausible than yours.

It is just as easy to argue against Cultural Moral Relativism as it is to argue for it from its initial premise that what a culture believes is true, is true in that culture. So my example is a counterexample to this meta-ethical claim that all moral truths are relative to culture. Do you even know what a "counterexample" is?

If what is morally true is relative to what a culture believes.
And, two different cultures believe the same moral truth.
Then what is morally true in this case is no longer relative to each of these two individual cultures.
Q.E.D.

So you either have to deny that moral truth is relative to each of these cultures, or commit to one of those cultures believing something false. After all, Cultural Moral Relativism is a meta-ethical claim that what is true in one culture is false in another. If two cultures believe the same thing, and what they believe is true in both cultures, then Cultural Moral Relativism is false.

Night Ripper;158587 wrote:
No, relativism isn't false within or without any cultures because relativism is a meta-ethical claim, not an ethical one.


"Killing Jews is wrong" is a normative claim.

"'Killing Jews is wrong' is true or false" is a meta-ethical claim.

"'Killing Jews is wrong' is true or false relative to culture x" is a meta-ethical claim.

This last claim entails that,

"Killing Jews is wrong" is true in one culture such as the USA if its citizens believe "'Killing Jews is wrong' is true." But "Killing Jews is wrong" is false in another culture such as WWII Germany if its citizens believe "'Killing Jews is not-wrong' is true."

But if one culture believes "'Killing Jews is wrong' is true" and another entirely different culture believes "Killing Jews is wrong' is true" then, since what a culture believes morally to be the case is true,

"All moral truths are relative to culture" is false.

Your view is not immune from all counterexamples and criticism. And your attitude toward philosophical topics is incredibly sophomoric, anti-intellectual, and simple-mindedly dogmatic.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 09:19 pm
@Alan McDougall,
There are hundrets of million christians, I do think this christian god is perfect, as most of these belivers just make him perfect in their minds.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 06:17 am
@Extrain,
Extrain;158590 wrote:
But if one culture believes "'Killing Jews is wrong' is true" and another entirely different culture believes "Killing Jews is wrong' is true" then, since what a culture believes morally to be the case is true


Only within those cultures are each of those claims true.
Extrain
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 10:05 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;158898 wrote:
Only within those cultures are each of those claims true.


So "'Killing Jews is wrong' is true" is actually false within Great Britain and false within in modern USA and true outside Great Britain and modern USA? And "'Killing Jews is right' is true" is actually false within WWII Germany and true outside WWII Germanany? So "Killing Jews is right" is true outide culture and "Killing Jews is wrong" is true outside culture? That's a condtradiction.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 10:09 am
@Extrain,
Extrain;158983 wrote:
So "Killing Jews is both right and wrong' is true" is true outside all cultures.?


Outside all cultures nothing is right or wrong.
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
morals and ethics, how are they different? - Question by existential potential
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
 
Copyright © 2023 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 01/31/2023 at 09:52:40