2
   

The Problem of Consciousness

 
 
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Sep, 2009 09:56 pm
@richrf,
richrf;87673 wrote:
Materialism never answered the questions I have had regarding purpose and being. It is a dead end, and a very quick dead end at that, i.e. You are here, you are gone, and while you are here you are just a zombie following deterministic rules. I don't find that this fits my life at all, and I would have to spend my life wondering why am I doing anything if this was all there was.


Even though 'materialism' doesnt promote that I will instead ask the question: why do you accept an idea as true and valid based solely on the theme of a security blanket that helps you sleep at night?
0 Replies
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Sep, 2009 11:02 pm
@richrf,
richrf;87767 wrote:
This is of course the million dollar question. I am here, and others are here with me and we are all conscious of it. Was that consciousness always here? Or was it conceived by something else that we are not aware of? Always may be possible if we think of space/time differently. When I am asleep, always seems more possible since there is no now, past, or future. Just things happening. I think there are always clues to it all, and it is a matter of putting the pieces together. Something to ponder, I guess.


When you say always do you mean infinity? That's a subject that never fails to make my head spin a bit when I'm trying to fall asleep.

It seems odd to me, but some people I talk to can kind of wrap their heads around the idea of space and time going on infinitely, but for some reason they can only imagine space and time only moving in one direction -- forward. Somehow they feel that infinity had to have a beginning, which to me seems counterintuitive. How can something that has no end ever have had a beginning? Why is it so difficult to imagine infinity working backward?

I even had someone say once that there was no such thing as infinity, that eventually everything would end. When I asked what would happen then, they said confidently that then everything would just begin again. Sadly, I failed to see how this was not the equivalent of infinity. Then again, my grasp of these matters in tenuous at best and I would enjoy having someone authoritatively explain to me how infinity began, including a sentence or two about what was there before infinity began.

Thinking about infinity functioning on x,y, and z planes, and especially functioning in the dimension of time, is a bit of a brain buster, it seems. I can hold on to the idea of an infinitude of time stretching backward, but only for a very short time. Then my brain just says, "Well, okay. That'll be enough of that now, eh? Let's move on shall we?"

I've kind of wandered off a bit, but is this what you mean by thinking of space/time differently? If not, I'm curious about what you do mean.

I can't remember who, but I remember someone once talking about there being no such thing as past or present, and no such thing as the passage of time in a conventionally conceived manner, that there was only "this everlasting now."

richrf;87783 wrote:
I enjoy discussing topics like consciousness just for the sheer enjoyment.


Same here. Sometimes I like to juggle belief systems and take a favorable stance toward something I might in fact find ludicrous or, conversely, I might mock and ridicule some belief that I actually cherish. I find that it's a useful exercise for examining a variety of subjects. This does tend to irritate folks and tarnish my credibility.

At some point I'd like to discuss/explore more deeply ideas about how the Universal Consciousness you've mentioned relates to free will or the lack thereof, but it's been a long day and I'm running out of steam.

Randomly,
TockTick
salima
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 02:22 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;87770 wrote:

Firstly, I dont know why you deny consciousness seeing how that defines who you are in a qualitative sense. Also, the word 'soul' is often associated as being a synonym for 'mind' but to each his own I guess.

Second, the reason why there is a distinction between the mind and the brain is because one is subjective and the other is objective: qualitative and quantitative. Can a third party 'see' consciousness in another individual? No, of course not. Otherwise it wouldnt be a subjective phenomenon. So where do we 'look' for the mind? The brain. The brain generates consciousness. When I say "the state of the brain is the state of the mind" it means exactly that: whatever the state that the brain is in the mind will be as well. So for example if we take an fMRI machine and hook it up to your brain and see all the different neurons firing via blood flow (hemodynamics) third parties can establish what you are thinking. Remember that states of the mind are an empirical problem for third parties because as we have said before: consciousness is a first-person ontology.

However, with your last question you seem to be hitting on the idea of Inverted Spectrum which, if that is the case, I will respond but if not then I think I answered it in the above.

Well, as I stated before your wording can be interpreted in many different ways. And which is why I made the response to Jeepers. 'Entire physicality' is a bit ambiguous. If I lose my arm can I still be conscious? Yes. Although, if I lose my heart, or lungs, or any vital organ, can I retain my consciousness? No, probably not. The human body is a fully functioning system that is highly interconnected and complex, so we have to be specific about this, right?

As for your last question about humor, I find it a tad irrelevant. Should I find out where humor is 'located' in the brain to answer the question? If that is unobtainable (which it probably is) I dont understand what that accomplishes. Does that merit the stance of hyperdualism or a 'soul'? No. Where does this lead us? We dont need to know EVERYTHING about the human mind/brain to know the two are interrelated, and actually there is plenty of things we have no clue about when looking at the neural network of a brain.


I denied consciousness? no, I denied mind.if you deny soul and it is synonymous with mind, you would also have to deny mind.
I find the term redundant. but we are getting close now I think. the first and second of my queries can be combined by my understanding as follows:
are you saying that mind comprises a part of consciousness? consciousness is subjective experience, the subject of that experience being the entire body (how does it matter if it is the body of a person without arms or legs, it is the entire living body comprising the totality of whatever is there functioning as a whole). perhaps you mean mind is subjective experience as defined by the content of the experience being confined to thoughts rather than perceived through the physical senses? brain is objective, while mind and consciousness are both subjective, though you can produce evidence to show they exist. is that a fair statement of your position?

regarding the last query I raised: so you think a sense of humor is irrelevant to the issue? I think neuroscience can show where is the domain of emotional content and what physical part of the brain reacts to certain stimuli to produce emotion, do you? maybe it cant-i could be wrong. however a sense of humor is not an emotion-and I am asking, has humor been pinned down like that? in other words for a start, is there an area in the brain which when stimulated with a probe will in every case cause the subject to experience the sense of humor and react by laughing as he would in any given situation he found humorous? probably KJ would be more likely to know the answer. your statement that "there is plenty of things we have no clue about when looking at the neural network of a brain." is of course quite true. unless there is some biological data to confirm it is otherwise, I want to begin by composing a list of those things then with 'sense of humor'. and no, I am not saying where this leads us as yet because I dont know. but I feel it is significant.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 04:57 am
@BrightNoon,
I do not see how any of us can define consciousness without taking into consideration that, even as we perform the act of thinking on the matter, we are increasing our consciousness of the matter. This immediately brings to our awareness that this consciousness of which we are struggling to define is going through a constant changing process with every consideration of it.

How can such a thing be defined that is one thing at one second, and something else in the next second. It is like trying to define the wind as it changes from breeze to gust and back again. Is the wind to be defined as a breeze or as a gust?

My point is that this continuous alteration of our consciousness must not be left aside when trying to define it because it is crucial to the definition. I am not so sure our definitions are not being flawed for that reason.

As Salima has pointed out, there is certainly a 'degree' of consciousness, as an infant, that would not be anywhere near the same definition of what it becomes in a few years. But is that infant not still the same person? The exact same identity? Is the individual self of that person changed as the consciousness increases in awareness and ability? The identity is Salima the infant, Salima the child, the teen, the adult. All are Salima because that is the person born to the parents, continuing in that body and aging day by day. Nothing of the consciousness changes that identity. It is always Salima

However, the character of that identity does change as it develops various conscious reactions to experiences it faces in life. This is not biological, but purely capacity for reason and deduction.

Something here varies between individuals, and it is not brain size or composition, or the way that the biological process of the brain functions. What is different between individuals is capacity to reason and deduce; Consciousness. That is not identity or ego. That is ability.

There is no self. What makes us individuals is not some self spirit dwelling within that is Salima or Pathfinder. We are all matter with biological processes that help to sustain that mysterious life that brought us into this reality. In that regard we are the same, and no different than any other lifeform on the planet. There is no self, or spirit, in that composition of cellular structure. There is no consciousness in that material form.

What and who we are is a living part of the overall creation of this universe as a whole. No more or less than a leaf or a rock in the whole scheme of material regard. But a leaf and a rock cannot ponder their existence. An animal does not wonder about its origin or try to find reason in its choices. The human does; this is consciousness. Not identity or spirit; just consciousness. Consciousness is an innate ability to ponder reality and both, how it affects us, and how we affect it. This is not individual, this is universal among humans. The difference is the 'degree' of consciousness.

And this is where my point is made. It is only upon considering the degree of consciousness that we come to the HOW it defines the individual. And then we are specifically talking about WHAT and WHO a person becomes as their consciousness increases through the experiences of life and their choices within it. it is this development that creates not an identity, but simply a 'higher consciousness'. Who and what we are can better be defined by what degree of consciousness we attain, for it is this capacity that enables us to make the choices and decisions that we do, and ultimately what results come into our reality based upon those decisions.

I would say that the biological form of Salima becomes how she walks and nothing more. It is this higher consciousness that will live on and surpass the present material biology of Salima.

This is why it is so crucial for us to strive to enhance that degree of consciousness in every way that we can, and to be sure that, in so doing, we direct it toward the moral virtues of life that are beneficial to our species. This creates character that becomes far more valuable and productive than mere survival, and will assist in promoting our species instead of detracting from it. We cannot separate ourselves from our humanity by pretending that we are alone and living in our self.

There is no self. There is consciousness and what we do with it. What we truly are is 'ability' combined with 'decision', and the limits of the increasing of this ability is what defines both the future state of the species, and the future state of that ability. What that ability can attain is sheer speculation given the vastness of this creation and the many mysteries it comprises. There are many sciences and ideologies, but only one truth.

The real question should be, ' Do I want to enhance my 'degree of consciousness' or simply become a stagnant pool of biological function?'
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 07:48 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;87796 wrote:
"Dream delivers us to dream, and there is no end to illusion. Life is a train of moods like a string of beads, and, as we pass through them, they prove to be many-colored lenses which paint the world their own hue, and each shows only what lies in its focus." --Emerson

I imagine that I was once a fetus. I was born. According to my mother I could speak in complete sentences as 12 months of age. Was I conscious through all of that? I don't think so. I don't think there was any 'me' to be conscious. I can't account for when or how it started, though. Apparently I wasn't conscious of becoming conscious.


Yes, this is a very keen observation. The awakening of consciousness. It is interesting to observe.

Thanks.

Rich

---------- Post added 09-03-2009 at 08:54 AM ----------

Kielicious;87797 wrote:
Even though 'materialism' doesnt promote that I will instead ask the question: why do you accept an idea as true and valid based solely on the theme of a security blanket that helps you sleep at night?


I do not accept the idea as true. It is the what makes most sense to me right now based upon all that I have observed and what I feel.

1) It feels like I do have a purpose.

2) It feels like I do want to live.

3) It feels like many of the skills that I have developed over a very long time, not just one life time.

4) It feels like I am connected to people via emotions, feelings, longings (I miss my son), and a desire to share my experiences with others, such as my girlfriend and friends.

5) If feels like I want to keep searching for more knowledge of where I came from.

6) I feels like things go back and forth.

7) It feels like I do have a choice in which direction I can move.

In my world, the one that I live in, everything does have purpose. Emotions and feelings have a purpose.

I am learning from my mistakes and pain makes me move forward and change. And I enjoy exploring. Simple materiality does not explain any of these feelings to me.

When I look into a mirror through my eyes, I wonder what is it that is observing?

Rich
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 08:01 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;87819 wrote:
Consciousness is an innate ability to ponder reality and both, how it affects us, and how we affect it. This is not individual, this is universal among humans. The difference is the 'degree' of consciousness.


Having spent part of my life as a massage therapist, my take on consciousness is that it's not exactly 'an ability' but rather an event that has to do with change.

If my massage is continuously the same movements, my client will eventually lose consciousnes of it. If I change the movement suddenly, that produces a consciousness unit.

One of my favorite movies is Adaptation. It's one of those movies I can watch over and over. A theme I see in it is the development of consciousness. The most dramatic incidence of consciousness comes from a crisis in which the status quo is resisted. Hamlet is an example of that. Hamlet appears to be about to pop out of the play all together into the world above it: which is my mind. This having been produced by crisis.

All of this inspires me to write a blog about an old version of Christianity that came to be known as gnosticism. It explains human consciousness as having originated in a part of God that began to question.
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 08:30 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
When you say always do you mean infinity? That's a subject that never fails to make my head spin a bit when I'm trying to fall asleep.


Yes, infinity does make one's head spin. It drives physicists crazy when their equations always reduce to infinity.

Consider the motion of an particle that is acting like a pendulum, which Itzhak Bentov, a mechanical engineer by trade, analyzes in his book Stalking the Wild Pendulum. At its peak, it momentum is zero. Therefore, this particle would have an infinite probability of being anywhere, using Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty. Bentov, in his book, discusses the harmonic motions (e.g. the beating of the heart) within the human mind/body and how it may be acting like a pendulum.

Zeno's Paradoxes, which deal with infinities, have always confounded me. I am always reading about them and putting them in context of what I am learning. I feel that I have to think of them in a very unique way in order to understand them.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
How can something that has no end ever have had a beginning? Why is it so difficult to imagine infinity working backward?


Things may very well reverse themselves if space/time wraps within itself. But, consciousness seems to be ordering events so as to create. So for me, space/time can merely be a ordering tool of consciousness so that it can create. But this is reaching the limits of my thoughts in this area.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
Then again, my grasp of these matters in tenuous at best and I would enjoy having someone authoritatively explain to me how infinity began, including a sentence or two about what was there before infinity began.


Unfortunately, that is not going to be me. I can only say, that space/time provides us with the mechanism to start and stop a game (e.g. a game of chess), so that we can start again afresh. However, there does not seem to be any limits to how many games we can play.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
That'll be enough of that now, eh? Let's move on shall we?"


Yes. When I think of things like this, I try to think of what is the purpose, rather than what is it? It seems like the purpose is to give us the ability to start and end whatever we are doing so that we can start again afresh. Otherwise we are trapped in whatever we are.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
I've kind of wandered off a bit, but is this what you mean by thinking of space/time differently? If not, I'm curious about what you do mean.


Yes, I think space/time has to be looked at from a totally different perspective. Not what is space/time, but what is the purpose? This, I think, provides clues.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
I can't remember who, but I remember someone once talking about there being no such thing as past or present, and no such thing as the passage of time in a conventionally conceived manner, that there was only "this everlasting now."


Yes, if you ponder it, everything you are experience is NOW, however it feels like you are experiencing something that happened or maybe something that is going to happen. But everything, is NOW. So, why the difference? This is a good question which I like to ponder. Interestingly, the mind is able to switch into a different state, so that NOW feels completely different when one is asleep and dreaming. These, I feel, are all clues.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
Same here. Sometimes I like to juggle belief systems and take a favorable stance toward something I might in fact find ludicrous or, conversely, I might mock and ridicule some belief that I actually cherish. I find that it's a useful exercise for examining a variety of subjects. This does tend to irritate folks and tarnish my credibility.


I love challenging the conventional in my own mind and in others. We are all sharing our experiences.

TickTockMan;87803 wrote:
At some point I'd like to discuss/explore more deeply ideas about how the Universal Consciousness you've mentioned relates to free will or the lack thereof, but it's been a long day and I'm running out of steam.


Yes, feel free, whenever you are of a mind. Cya,

Rich
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 11:08 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;87563 wrote:
Actually I feel I am not really contributing anything useful in this thread ...


... personally, I thought you were Smile ... Merleau-Ponty certainly shines a phenomenological light on what experience is, but phenomenology is metaphysics-free (it has little to say regarding what experience is of) ... along the lines of Alva Noe (cognition as the dynamic nexus of brain-body-world), I think you would also find both Pfeifer and Bongard's "How the Body Shapes the Way We Think: A New View of Intelligence" (the robotics perspective on situated embodiment) and Rockwell's "Neither Brain nor Ghost: A Nondualist Alternative to the Mind-Brain Identity Theory" (a philosopher pushes the envelope of the situated embodiment concept) to be interesting ...
0 Replies
 
bbbennyboy34
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 11:34 am
@BrightNoon,
"no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn "
jim morrison Smile
0 Replies
 
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 02:45 pm
@richrf,
richrf;87829 wrote:

I do not accept the idea as true. It is the what makes most sense to me right now based upon all that I have observed and what I feel.

1) It feels like I do have a purpose.

2) It feels like I do want to live.

3) It feels like many of the skills that I have developed over a very long time, not just one life time.

4) It feels like I am connected to people via emotions, feelings, longings (I miss my son), and a desire to share my experiences with others, such as my girlfriend and friends.

5) If feels like I want to keep searching for more knowledge of where I came from.

6) I feels like things go back and forth.

7) It feels like I do have a choice in which direction I can move.

In my world, the one that I live in, everything does have purpose. Emotions and feelings have a purpose.




You didnt really answer the question besides "it makes sense".

Feelings dont determine the validity or truth value of anything. There's a reason why the first thing you learn when going into a debate class or a critical thinking course is NOT to appeal to emotion. Otherwise, I could just respond like you: I feel like your wrong, so you are wrong.

Edit: and salima I will respond to your post later when I have more time. thx
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 03:04 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;87882 wrote:
You didnt really answer the question besides "it makes sense".

Feelings dont determine the validity or truth value of anything. There's a reason why the first thing you learn when going into a debate class or a critical thinking course is NOT to appeal to emotion. Otherwise, I could just respond like you: I feel like your wrong, so you are wrong.


You can respond anyway you wish, and I would respect it. Most of my career whether in computer consulting, financial investment, and stock market investment was (is) based upon a combination of experience and gut feeling. And I was (am) very accomplished in this area. Most of art, dance, and music as well as sports is based upon feel. Technique is one thing, feeling is something completely different. And those who only learn from their mind are always at odds from those who have learned to use both. It is the way of the world.

Rich
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 08:52 pm
@richrf,
Kielicious;87770 wrote:

So for example if we take an fMRI machine and hook it up to your brain and see all the different neurons firing via blood flow (hemodynamics) third parties can establish what you are thinking.



jeeprs;87785 wrote:
Would you have a reference for that? It conflicts with some other reading I have been doing on the subject. I would be curious to know how you would translate MRI images into words and pictures.


While it may not be as straight forward as the wording would often lead one to create an image of; I mean when one hears, 'we can see what you are thinking about,' it often leads to a certain imagery. However, the possible case that rather close nuances of what one is thinking, or feeling internally towards a matter, may not be that far off into the future--because it is being done a little bit, to a less nuanced degree, now.

[indent]Neuroscientist Frank Tong of Vanderbuilt University (Tenn. USA) and his team did studies on reading neuron firings to determine which of several objects a person was looking at, by fMRI recordings. The neurons of the visual cortex, like other areas of the cortex, are in a kind of vertical layout (as well as horizontal too, but that's a little different in function). These are called columns, and those of the visual cortex are called 'orientation columns'; that is because indivudial columns tend to fire for certain orientations of lines only. Because the orientation columns are too small to be recorded individually by fMRI (which can go no lower than a cube with 3mm on each side), the recordings are of groups. That means that a bit more time, and checking and cross-comparing tests is necessary. However, the team has come up with being able to determine which object orientation (out of 8 possible ones) is being looked at by a subject at any given moment with a slightly higher than 56% success rate. The team leader, Tong, said, "With fMRI we can read out what a person is seeing or perceiving."

Christof Koch and a team at the California Institute of Technology, in Paedena (Calf. USA), inserted electrodes into the brains of patients undergoing surgery to treat epilepsy, to check for neuron reading, as well. They were able to record out neurons responded in the hippocampus and a few other areas, and found that cells fired in response to a known face or places, but to nothing else. This firing did appear to be more representative of concepts rather than images (the input was visual). For example, a single cell (though not the only one in a map, but just one recorded) fired in response to a drawing of Berry (and actress), a photo of her from the movie Catwoman, and her name in letters. Observations and results led to an estimate of some few hundred neurons firing for recognizing a face.

Tomaso Poggio and Chou Hung, et al., (MIT, USA) showed pictures of cars, faces, and other objects to macaque monkeys while recording the activity of neurons in their inferior temporal cortex (an area for identifying objects). In a kind of 'blind testing' study, they found that they could determine which object a monkey was looking at from just the activity of a few recorded cells. They recorded the activity of some 200 neurons in time splices of12.5 milliseconds. From a mere 50 or so nerve spikes, they could get enough information to be up to 80% accurate in determining which object had been being looked at, at a moment. (NewScientist Vol 190, No. 2550, May 6,'06; p32~36; see Nature Neuroscience Vol 8, pp 679, 686; and Nature Vol 435, p 1102)

Marcel A. Just (Caregie Mellon University) claims to get 80% accuracy in predicting what a subject is looking at using fMRI. He said that it can also be determined whether a subject is reading a clear sentence, or an ambiguous one, or imagining a verb as opposed to a noun. Scientific American Vol 289, Sept. '03; pp 54-57 (also see Vol 297, July '07; pp 34-41)[/indent]

I mean, since we can, for example, observe and record nanoscale dynamics of membrane lipids in a living cell using emergent stimulated emission depletion (STED) florescence microscopy, then it is not that much of a big deal to observe and record neuron spikes in relation to what the brain is doing in an activity. (Christian Eggeling et al. Nature Vol 457, 2 Feb. '09) forgot to take page numbers

Now, also, a new advance in MRI--Travelling-wave MRI--gives us even clearer definition of brain structures at a level of 7-tesla. (Nature Vol 457, 19 Feb. '09) forgot to take page numbers

And then we have, of course among a number of examples, the likes of (and I'll just point to them without explanation to save space, since my main drive here is to present reference [source]):

[indent]Michael C. Lee et al.; Identifying Brain Activity Specifically Related to the Maintenance of Perceptual Consequence of Central Sensitization in Humans Journal of Neuroscience [hereafter JNS] Vol 28, Nov. 5, '08; pp 11642-11649

Jose L. Pardo-Vazques et al. Neural Correlates of Decisions and their Outcomes in the Ventral Premotor Cortex JNS Vol 28, Nov. 19, '08; pp 12396-12408

Craig E. Brown et al. In Vivo Voltage-Sensitive Dye Imaging in Adult Mice Reveals that Somatosensory Maps Lost to Stroke Are Replaced Over Weeks by New Structural and Functional Circuits With Prolonged Modes of Activation Within Both the Peri-Infarct Zone and Distant Sites JNS Vol 29, Feb. 11, '09; pp 1719-1734 [That is the longest paper title I've ever come across...wow !]

Luca Passamonti et al. Personality Predicts the Brain's Response to Viewing Appetizing Foods: The Neural Basis of a Risk Factor for Overeating JNS Vol 29, Jan ', '09; pp 43-51

Paul J. Eslinger et al. Developmental shifts in fMRI activations during visuospatial realtion reasoning Brain and Cognition Vol ? , '08 [I got this on line by subscription in the 'in press' format, so only had a doi [doi:10.1016/j.bandc.2008.04.010] so it was probably published in June or so]

Etienne Koechilin and Alexandre Hyafil Anterior Prefrontal Function and the Limits of Human Decision-Making Science Vol 318, Oct. 26, '07; pp 594-598

Hagar Gelbard-Sagiv et al. Internally Generated Reactivation of Single Neurons in Human Hippocamppus During Free Recall Science Vol 322, Oct. 3, '08; pp 96-100 [/indent]

This is a bit extensive, but not exhaustive. I just want to make it clear enough, that we can record neuron activity in action as animals are acting and thinking, even in free motion (in mice). We can see, generally map, and know representation to self-volition of mirror neurons in monkeys--and to a lesser extent in humans even. I do hope this is helpful, jeeprs. I did spend some three hours last night going through journals to relocate some papers (since my cataloging is about three years behind--I'll have to try to catch up, but wow...a lot of work).
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 09:57 pm
@BrightNoon,
It reminds me of that saying 'be careful what you wish for':bigsmile: Seriously though, thanks for all that info KJ, sure looks like it answers the question in the affirmative - I will have to find some time to take it in.

---------- Post added 09-04-2009 at 02:22 PM ----------

paulhanke;87855 wrote:
... personally, I thought you were Smile ... Merleau-Ponty certainly shines a phenomenological light on what experience is, but phenomenology is metaphysics-free (it has little to say regarding what experience is of) ... along the lines of Alva Noe (cognition as the dynamic nexus of brain-body-world), I think you would also find both Pfeifer and Bongard's "How the Body Shapes the Way We Think: A New View of Intelligence" (the robotics perspective on situated embodiment) and Rockwell's "Neither Brain nor Ghost: A Nondualist Alternative to the Mind-Brain Identity Theory" (a philosopher pushes the envelope of the situated embodiment concept) to be interesting ...


Thanks, Paul, and yes, I have just discovered this whole line of 'cognitivism' and it is opening some amazing doors. After that earlier thread on 'consciousness as a biological problem' I discovered that Alva Noe book 'Out of our Heads' and also The Embodied Mind by Francisco Varela. Now the latter actually has a relationship with Buddhism, one of my other main interests, which is also metaphysics-free in the sense you refer to above. (In fact the whole relationship between Buddhism and phenomenology is another fascinating topic....)

I also feel, from what I have read about the Noe book, it actually supported some aspects of the argument I put forward inthat other thread, specifically:

Quote:


Very close to a point I was trying to make.

But the problem is finding time to read all this stuff. It is like a year's postgraduate research just to get your head around it. I will try and assimilate it (Phenomenology of Perception is not an easy read) and present some relevant points because I think it is an important perspective and a non-mystical alternative to the neuro-scientific approach.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 12:36 am
@Pathfinder,
richrf;87673 wrote:
Materialism never answered the questions I have had regarding purpose and being. It is a dead end, and a very quick dead end at that, i.e. You are here, you are gone, and while you are here you are just a zombie following deterministic rules. I don't find that this fits my life at all, and I would have to spend my life wondering why am I doing anything if this was all there was.

Kielicious;87797 wrote:
Even though 'materialism' doesnt promote that . . . . .


Just out of curiosity, if I may again veer a bit off topic, what does Materialism promote?

Pathfinder;87819 wrote:


And this is where my point is made.


I'm having some cognitive dissonance with a few of your points that came later in your essay, in particular with your insistence on separating
consciousness from self. Forgive me if I rearrange a few things and put a few others in bold[/] for emphasis.

And forgive me as well if I'm completely missing the point of what you are saying. I'm about a Corona and a half
past my limit right now and feeling pugnacious.

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]There is no self.[/QUOTE]

I may have to ask you to speak for yourself here.

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]It is only upon considering the degree of consciousness that we come to the HOW it defines the individual. And then we are specifically talking about WHAT and WHO a person becomes as their consciousness increases through the experiences of life and their choices within it. it is this development that creates not an identity, but simply a 'higher consciousness'. Who and what we are can better be defined by what degree of consciousness we attain, for it is this capacity that enables us to make the choices and decisions that we[B/] do, and ultimately what results come into our reality based upon those decisions.[/QUOTE]

If there is no self, who are these we, us, and I entities you refer to?

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]we are specifically talking about WHAT and WHO a person becomes as their consciousness increases through the experiences of life and their choices within it. it is this development that creates not an identity, but simply a 'higher consciousness'. [/QUOTE]

How is this higher consciousness identified, or separated from the still developing lower consciousnesses if it does not have some form of identity? What's the point of having a higher consciousness if it can't be distinguished from the lower ones?

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]Who and what we are can better be defined by what degree of consciousness we attain[/QUOTE]

Who and what we are? Isn't that pretty close to a definition of self?

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]
This is why it is so crucial for us to strive to enhance that degree of consciousness in every way that we can, and to be sure that, in so doing, we direct it toward the moral virtues of life that are beneficial to our species. This creates character that becomes far more valuable and productive than mere survival, and will assist in promoting our species instead of detracting from it. We cannot separate ourselves from our humanity by pretending that we are alone and living in our self. [/QUOTE]

Is there no room for the individual? I would think that individuality is a far greater catalyst for growth than the herd mentality of a collective consciousness. We all know how well the so-called mob mentality works.

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]I would say that the biological form of Salima becomes how she walks and nothing more. It is this higher consciousness that will live on and surpass the present material biology of Salima.[/QUOTE]

Is it just me, or does this come off as a bit Deterministic? Especially if you remove the concept of 'self' and 'identity' from the equation.

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]There is no self. There is consciousness and what we do with it. [/QUOTE]

How can we do anything with it if there is no self to be a we? Who is having the awareness of this consciousness that you speak of if there is no identity? If, as you say:

[QUOTE=Pathfinder;87819]What we truly are is 'ability' combined with 'decision', [/QUOTE]

That doesn't seem like much. Now it starts to look like maybe we're all programmed in the antiquated computer language of BASIC where everything is all "If such and such equals whatever, then goto this that or the other." So would this be a Probabilistic system, Deterministic, or what. I'm becoming increasingly baffled at this point.

At least I think I am . . .

(burp)
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 12:49 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;87964 wrote:
It reminds me of that saying 'be careful what you wish for':bigsmile: Seriously though, thanks for all that info KJ, sure looks like it answers the question in the affirmative - I will have to find some time to take it in.

---------- Post added 09-04-2009 at 02:22 PM ----------



Thanks, Paul, and yes, I have just discovered this whole line of 'cognitivism' and it is opening some amazing doors. After that earlier thread on 'consciousness as a biological problem' I discovered that Alva Noe book 'Out of our Heads' and also The Embodied Mind by Francisco Varela. Now the latter actually has a relationship with Buddhism, one of my other main interests, which is also metaphysics-free in the sense you refer to above. (In fact the whole relationship between Buddhism and phenomenology is another fascinating topic....)

I also feel, from what I have read about the Noe book, it actually supported some aspects of the argument I put forward inthat other thread, specifically:



Very close to a point I was trying to make.

But the problem is finding time to read all this stuff. It is like a year's postgraduate research just to get your head around it. I will try and assimilate it (Phenomenology of Perception is not an easy read) and present some relevant points because I think it is an important perspective and a non-mystical alternative to the neuro-scientific approach.


i read only an article on Noe, so i am not exactly knowledgeable on the concept. but from your quote of his (which doesnt show in this post)
suggests to me that this would be a behavioral answer?

one of the ideas i had was that social conditioning affects how we perceive, evaluate and behave-what sort of affect could something in the environment regarding the social structure in which we live affect the brain physically and how then would the brain cause us to alter our thoughts and behavior?

also in that article by Noe i thought he might have been saying that the entire body is conscious...i would also say the entire body is responsible for consciousness (defined as subjective experience), not the brain alone. perception comes to the entire body not only through certain senses, and there must be something akin to perception in the intellect-for instance, perceiving math through the faculty of intellect would be equivalent to understanding math. along that line, i suppose perceiving contradiction could stimulate a humor response by some area of the brain. (i forget the types of humor, but there are basic conditions which underlie what makes something funny.) but so far i am not coming up with a good alternative to the biology/neurology explanation of the existence and mechanics of consciousness.

and from the original thread it may become an agreement that more than the brain/neurology causes consciousness-but at the same time we are only finding other physical causes. more ingredients but no cook...
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 03:16 am
@BrightNoon,
I am writing on a computer. You can know all there is to know about this computer, be you a chip scientist from Intel or a Mac software engineer, but that won't necessarily mean that you can make sense of what is being written on here. You could also probably zoom in on the hard drive and find the actual bytes which represent this particular text, on the drive of a server. But then, if they are not interpreted by the operating system, displayed on a screen, and read by another human, how can they actually said to mean anything? Of course every conscious act has a neural correlate. But can the neural correlate be said to constitute a conscious act? That is the question.

Here is a video interview with Alva Noe called 'What Makes Brains Conscious?' Runs for about 10 minutes and is well worth watching. And here's a question: during the interview, he denies he is a [8-letter word, begins with 'v']. But based on what he says after denying it, I think this denial might be questioned. What is it that he denies, and why might this be questioned?
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 04:54 am
@BrightNoon,
Tick Tock, you might want to leave that other Corona in the fridge bud, its killin waaay too many brain cells, lol.

The WE,I,US ETC., is all ways to describe the form we use at this time, we identify with our bodies for the sake of identifying our individuality. Its hard to be just another apple in the barrel and we need to be able to distinguish our loved ones from the rest of the apples somehow.

But that doesn't change the fact that what many are trying to define as self or soul does not exist the way they suppose that it does.

Higher consciousness is not another consciousness, or to mean that one has a lower AND higher consciousness, it is one and the same consciousness being evolved to a higher degree.

What you are doing is supposing that because we must use this body to interact with our environment that we must therefore have a permanent identity within it.

It is that thinking that creates the theories of souls passing on to heaven and the like. If there is one thing that we are sure of it is the very certain fact that this body of ours is dying and very impermanent. You can name it what you want but that name will only be something on a headstone in 100 years from now.

The name we call the body has nothing to do with the consciousness we attain. And the consciousness we attain is not bound to the biological function of the brain as I have pointed out.
ACB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 05:37 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;87997 wrote:
The WE,I,US ETC., is all ways to describe the form we use at this time, we identify with our bodies for the sake of identifying our individuality. Its hard to be just another apple in the barrel and we need to be able to distinguish our loved ones from the rest of the apples somehow.


But this still presupposes that there is a 'we', 'I' etc in the first place. You refer to "our" bodies and "our" individuality. This implies that the bodies and individuality are properties of "us", and hence conceptually separable from "us". So you need to define "we/us" independently of our properties. I find it hard to see how you could do this while denying a self, since "we/us" seems to be equivalent in meaning to "ourselves".

When you say "the form we use at this time", do you mean to imply that we have some kind of choice? Could I choose (or could I at some point have chosen) which body my consciousness in currently located in?
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 05:55 am
@ACB,
ACB;88006 wrote:
But this still presupposes that there is a 'we', 'I' etc in the first place. You refer to "our" bodies and "our" individuality. This implies that the bodies and individuality are properties of "us", and hence conceptually separable from "us". So you need to define "we/us" independently of our properties. I find it hard to see how you could do this while denying a self, since "we/us" seems to be equivalent in meaning to "ourselves".

When you say "the form we use at this time", do you mean to imply that we have some kind of choice? Could I choose (or could I at some point have chosen) which body my consciousness in currently located in?


No of course we do not have a choice, but how does that change the issue?

"WE" are these bodies that carry our consciousness. In order to find individuality and identity while we are using them, we identify with them personally and intimately, and rightly so. The "US" that is separate from our biological body is simply that 'life force' where our consciousness resides. It is not an identity, or self, or soul, that is bound to the individual we are at this time, but instead the continuing conscious life force that brought us here in the first place, has done so in the past in past incarnations, and will do so again in the future ones. This is what I meant by At THIS TIME.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 08:54 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;87989 wrote:
I am writing on a computer. You can know all there is to know about this computer, be you a chip scientist from Intel or a Mac software engineer, but that won't necessarily mean that you can make sense of what is being written on here. You could also probably zoom in on the hard drive and find the actual bytes which represent this particular text, on the drive of a server. But then, if they are not interpreted by the operating system, displayed on a screen, and read by another human, how can they actually said to mean anything? Of course every conscious act has a neural correlate. But can the neural correlate be said to constitute a conscious act? That is the question.

Here is a video interview with Alva Noe called 'What Makes Brains Conscious?' Runs for about 10 minutes and is well worth watching. And here's a question: during the interview, he denies he is a [8-letter word, begins with 'v']. But based on what he says after denying it, I think this denial might be questioned. What is it that he denies, and why might this be questioned?


i think i know what you mean-i used to dismiss everything neurology said about how the brain worked, for instance if you can probe a part of the brain mush and get a spiritual experience, i thought-'great, where is the problem? so that is how we have one of those experiences...how does it make it any less spiritual?" in other words, I saw the neuronal activity as being the way the brain reacts to us having a particular experience, not the cause of it.
so now I am looking closer being as unbiased as I can be. but I still dont see how we can consider brain activity to be the cause of all experience-because if you do not probe someone's brain and they have that activity...what is the stimulus that is causing it? if you cant find any stimulus in the brain or in the environment, doesnt it make sense to start looking further away? like really far away?



I am going to do my best to get at the video, but ten minutes is probably an hour's download for me!
 

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