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Barack Obama, History and Hope

 
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 02:04 pm
A dawn of a new era has approached us in the United States with the election of Barack Obama as the President of the United States of America. Our grandparents never could have envisioned an African American breaking down the race barriers to rise to the highest ranking position in the land, but now find themselves witnessing what they certainly thought was impossible only a few generations ago. But now the American people have joined together to elect the first non-rich white guy President who also happens to be the most qualified for the post. Dr. Martin Luther King junior your dream has been realized, but the work is far from over, for it has just begun. Now it is up to the American people to become the change that hope inspired within the nation.

This historic election is an example of what happens when a nation of people are inspired by the unifying powers of hope. Barack Obama overcame the odds and not only toppled the mighty Hillary Clinton, and then took down the man that couldn't lose no matter how he tried-John McCain-all through the idea that hope leadership can inspire a nation to visualize and manifest a new direction for humanity. The world has never been smaller, and the chances of totally catastrophe have never been higher that it is essential that people unify and begin dreaming solutions to the crises at hand.

Never before has the country faced times as bad as they currently are. Sure, there were the infant years where great heroes like Thomas Jefferson held together a nation stuck in a series of growing pains under the idea of freedom, liberty, and justice for all. The meaning of that line has been the heart of all of the great crises of the United States has overcome. From the abolition of slavery, to women's suffrage, to the Great Depression, through World War II and the subsequent Cold War, and the civil rights movement, groups of people banded together for a common cause and questioned the status quo meaning of freedom, liberty, and justice for all.

This concept from the first day of the Bush Administration faced a series of assaults that has undermined the basic principles of the United States democracy. All the while it seemed that much of the freedom, liberty, and justice for all seemed to be reserved for the elite corporate powers that continue to exercise their might throughout the world with the complicit backing of the government elected on the principle of government for the people by the people. It seems that every 50-100 years business take a death grip on the people and ends up collapsing the system due to the concentration of wealth at the top. Thus, the economy suffers, but it always recovers as the wealth becomes more evenly distributed. Until this happens the economy will be impossible to turn around without fairness and balance added to the economic picture. Most of the social issues in the country arise out of this simple complication, and until wealth is more evenly distributed there will not be the necessary human capital to begin to right the sinking ship.

Of course it will not be easy for an Obama led government and people to fix everything that is wrong with the American society. The problems are almost too numerous to name in full. The economy is in shambles; the No Child Left Behind Act has left all children behind; higher education costs continue spiraled out of control and limit many people's access; far too many people have no or woefully inadequate health insurance; there is an insane war in Iraq that continues to bleed the nation; the war on terror continues with no end in sight; the war in Afghanistan drags on and it appears there is no end on the horizon; the United States image in the world need major repair; the insane spending on the defense of the nation must come to a close; and the militarization of the police must stop. But that is not it. The inner cities continue to decay, the country remains sharply divided, and families have far too little quality time together. While it may appear to be hopeless, at least we have a leader that has the enthusiasm to inspire a nation. Obama's job is a far from envious position that most of us would curl up into a submissive ball of protoplasm over, but some one has to take the responsibility to lead the country back to respectability and stability.

When given the opportunity the American people have always prevailed, and now we have elected the perfect leader to guide the way. Obama's exceptional oratory skills, his ability to reason, along with his calm demeanor gives him the qualities needed to calmly guide the country through the times. May Obama's qualities find their way into the population, and may there be a renaissance of the American Dream. The last eight years have been guided an assault upon reason and decency, and the challenges will not be easy to overcome. But at least we can say we have source for hope for the future and have proven to possess the necessary enthusiasm to manifest a new reality that will guide the way into the future.
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sarek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 03:20 pm
@Theaetetus,
From across the ocean and probably speaking on behalf of most Europeans I express the hope that you are right.
God knows we can use some inspirational leadership right now.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 02:10 am
@sarek,
sarek wrote:
From across the ocean and probably speaking on behalf of most Europeans I express the hope that you are right.
God knows we can use some inspirational leadership right now.


I hope I am right too. I am rather cynical and the only reason why I wrote this piece so hopeful was due to some of my friends outrageous optimism. I think Obama may offer the inspirational leadership the world lacks though. Just his rise to the position should inspire hundreds of millions of people.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 07:08 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
... Just his rise to the position should inspire hundreds of millions of people.


Nice post Theaetetus,

The quoted portion above is especially important, I think. What's very interesting about this dynamic of "positivism" is that the person whom its centered around need not... really... do or be anything. As people perceive, "... an inspirational assertion of our self will and need for positive change", such will be the case.

All the "doer" has to do, really, is keep their nose clean and happy-mania will continue to reap its own rewards.

The pack mentality doesn't have much of a "good side", but when such shows, it's so nice indeed!

Thanks
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 03:45 pm
@Theaetetus,
It's rare when herd mentality actually gets anything right, which I think may be part of the point of trying to form people into herds.

Its rare when leaders of the elected world are inspirational figures. It seems that leaders nowadays are of an evil genius of sorts where they try manipulating everything behind the scenes.

Hell, Obama inspired me to write this piece, which may be my first positive political piece ever. I typically do not like to write about politics due to the negativity surrounding so much of modern politics, and the feeling that I am slinging mud at someone even if it is deserved.

I hope Obama succeeds because a trend of intelligent, thoughtful, enthusiastic politicians is probably what the world needs more than anything right now.
VideCorSpoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Nov, 2008 10:59 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:


I hope Obama succeeds because a trend of intelligent, thoughtful, enthusiastic politicians is probably what the world needs more than anything right now.


Ironically, they said the same thing about George W. Bush when he was elected to his first term. When the economic crisis hits the boiling point in a year or so, blame will be placed on the next presidential scape goat. Its the way of the world I suppose.

I don't know, I voted for Obama not becuase of his very skilled repertoire of rhetorical phrases, but becuase he is the populist choice. And one thing you never want to do is piff off the plebeians.

But honestly, do you really think Obama is entirely different from anyone else that has been on capitol hill? Do you think he is not susceptible to the same bureaucracy? Case in point, I just read today that Obama intends to accelerate the development of the missle defense system in Poland. If I am not mistaken, a year or so ago, this was major point of contention between the republicans and the democrats. Obama had even mentioned his disfavor with the deployment. Now here we are, Obama is elected, and he gives his full support to the sytem, and has even riled the current Russian government enough for them to threaten asymetirc batteries, something that the outgoing bush administration had managed to avoid.

One thing I was kinda hoping Obama would do is open up a dialog with Iran. That seems like one of his biggest talking points a while ago. He has not returned diplomatic dispatches of thanks from Ahmadinejad. I have to ask myself why he has done this? I think most problems in the world can be solved by talking it out. Yet here it is, a week or so after the election enforcing the current administrations embargo.

I think there has been a great change, one presidential personality for another. Beyond that, it seems very precarious.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Nov, 2008 11:38 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon;33269 wrote:
I just read today that Obama intends to accelerate the development of the missle defense system in Poland.
His caveat, however, is only if the defense system has been shown to be effective. This isn't trivial -- Bush NEVER responded to the criticism that we aren't even sure these things work.

That's the difference. He is thoughtful, he seems to listen to experts (rather than just allies), and he's willing to revise his position and not overcommit. That IS different than what we've seen.

Obama will never be like a Carter or a Bush (senior or junior), i.e. a huge disappointment. Everyone talks about the best case scenario of him being like another FDR.

But honestly the biggest risk for Obama will be becoming another Woodrow Wilson. Wilson was an utterly brilliant man with views far ahead of his time, but he was an impractical idealist and, in the end, his baby (the League of Nations) wasn't even ratified by his own country, it was an abject failure, and WWI led to WWII -- the exact opposite of Wilson's ideas.

Obama is also at risk of accomplishing too little by trying to accomplish too much.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Nov, 2008 11:42 pm
@Theaetetus,
I don't think that Obama is all that different than other politicians, but he does represent a major symbolic achievement for the country. Not to mention, he does seem to possess is an ability to help others realize their potential just by being an inspirational figure head. The fact that he seems to live up the role of an inspirational figurehead gives him the ability to do something to change the direction of the world. Not to mention, it is nice to have a president who can speak and do so better than 99.9% of the population. At least Obama sounds presidential.

If you think about it, the economy was in nowhere near the shambles it was in when Bush I left office, and it towards the end of Clinton the economy was rather shaky but that was probably more on the shoulders of the Republican lead House and Senate than Clinton who oversaw a rapid turn around of the economy. Thus, I think the media played up this image of Bush as an agent of change because they knew their pockets would be lined if they played along.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Nov, 2008 11:47 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:

But honestly the biggest risk for Obama will be becoming another Woodrow Wilson. Wilson was an utterly brilliant man with views far ahead of his time, but he was an impractical idealist and, in the end, his baby (the League of Nations) wasn't even ratified by his own country, it was an abject failure, and WWI led to WWII -- the exact opposite of Wilson's ideas.


Honestly, this is my biggest concern with an Obama administration. Wilson, after history had it say, seemed to have been one of the worst presidents in history due to his impractical idealism.

What I do think though is that Obama is in the step in the right direction as long as the people hold him to some sort of standards.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 08:34 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
It's rare when herd mentality actually gets anything right, which I think may be part of the point of trying to form people into herds.

Its rare when leaders of the elected world are inspirational figures. It seems that leaders nowadays are of an evil genius of sorts where they try manipulating everything behind the scenes.

Hell, Obama inspired me to write this piece, which may be my first positive political piece ever. I typically do not like to write about politics due to the negativity surrounding so much of modern politics, and the feeling that I am slinging mud at someone even if it is deserved.

I hope Obama succeeds because a trend of intelligent, thoughtful, enthusiastic politicians is probably what the world needs more than anything right now.


I would just like to point out that these talented spewers of populist nonsense (I believe you call it inspirational leadership) are always the most dangerous. When any politicians manages to rally support around rhetoric of blind hope (or blind fear, in political discourse they are synonymous), they tend to hold a drastically disproportionate amount of power to push through their own agenda.

For examples, I note Lenin, Hitler, Mao, and Castro.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 08:52 am
@Theaetetus,
Quote:
Honestly, this is my biggest concern with an Obama administration. Wilson, after history had it say, seemed to have been one of the worst presidents in history due to his impractical idealism.

What I do think though is that Obama is in the step in the right direction as long as the people hold him to some sort of standards.
Offer up evidence to show that Obama is an idealist and not a populist shill for the democratic party.

I personally cannot think of one instance where he said anything that may have alienated any potential democratic voter.

His policy statements always seem to be of the nature "We will redistribute wealth, but not too much", "We will regulate the market, but not too much", "We will cut military spending, but not too much", "We will pursue peaceful talks with our enemies, but we will bomb the **** out of them if they don't agree with us."
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 09:04 am
@Theaetetus,
You may want to reread my first sentence you quoted. I was referring to Woodrow Wilson as an impractical idealist referring to a previous comment (although I do admit the sentence was not constructed all that well).

Policy statements are just rhetoric at this point. I am curious to see how things unfold, but after the last eight years Obama is a major improvement. Obama alienated voter with superficial things (race, not wearing flag pin, being tagged as a Muslim) so he had to tread carefully where he spoke. The way I look at it is that at least John McCain is not the next president with Sarah Palin following as the next president soon after.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 10:28 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;33278 wrote:
Wilson, after history had it say, seemed to have been one of the worst presidents in history due to his impractical idealism.
I completely disagree with this. Wilson is ranked by scholars as one of the greatest presidents in our history, and this is true of both conservative and liberal historians.

Historical rankings of United States Presidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His idealism was only impractical because the rest of the world didn't learn a damned thing from WWI -- so he had no one to work with him. He exceeded perhaps even Teddy Roosevelt in making America an international power, he oversaw one of the most massive and effective industrializations in our history in the militarization for WWI. And he is best remembered for being the first president to express what we all hope to be the BEST qualities of America -- being a champion of democracy, liberty, peace, and freedom from tyranny. America's image in the world was vastly different after WWI than before, and our rather short operational involvement in the war is not solely to credit -- the Allied blockade of Germany did far more to end the war than did the American involvement. But the post WWI world was no less nationalistic than before the war -- it was simply less bellicose. The monarchies in Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey had collapsed, leaving enormous power vacuums and civil wars, and the governments in Britain and France had lost a whole generation of men. What did Wilson really have to work with? His ideas were only impractical because everyone else's ideas were anachronistic and destructive.

Furthermore, if you read about him you'll find that he had a great deal of success on domestic matters, some of which influences our country to this day.

Theaetetus wrote:
towards the end of Clinton the economy was rather shaky but that was probably more on the shoulders of the Republican lead House and Senate than Clinton who oversaw a rapid turn around of the economy
The only thing shaky about the economy at the end of the Clinton years was the potential energy in the internet bubble. Not even the real estate / mortgage bubble had taken form yet. There was a budget surplus, they had been paying down some of the national debt, and Clinton adopted a budget balancing strategy in 1993 by siding with deficit hawks, i.e. before the Republicans took control of Congress. His tax increase, which has been continually slammed by Republicans (and reversed by the Bush tax cuts) were primarily what balanced the budget (along with continuous capital growth throughout the decade after the 1992-1993 recession ended).

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
I personally cannot think of one instance where he said anything that may have alienated any potential democratic voter.
He's pandered quite a bit to conservatives, which could easily alienate democratic voters if he weren't otherwise so popular. He's beating the conservative hawks' wardrum about Iran, Russia, and bin Laden (who is completely irrelevant to Al Qaeda at this point); he's just as cowardly about China as any other American politician; he's pandered on offshore drilling and nuclear power; he's barely distanced himself at all from the policies of Paulson and Bernanke, or from the Bush administration's ideas about economic stimulus infusions; he failed to commit to appointing pro-choice justices; he is basically an apologist for "no child left behind" other than its funding...

He had such a stranglehold on democratic voters and new voters that he could afford to risk alienating some of his base by echoing some conservative positions.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:09 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
He's pandered quite a bit to conservatives, which could easily alienate democratic voters if he weren't otherwise so popular. He's beating the conservative hawks' wardrum about Iran, Russia, and bin Laden (who is completely irrelevant to Al Qaeda at this point); he's just as cowardly about China as any other American politician; he's pandered on offshore drilling and nuclear power; he's barely distanced himself at all from the policies of Paulson and Bernanke, or from the Bush administration's ideas about economic stimulus infusions; he failed to commit to appointing pro-choice justices; he is basically an apologist for "no child left behind" other than its funding...

He had such a stranglehold on democratic voters and new voters that he could afford to risk alienating some of his base by echoing some conservative positions.


This is kind of what I mean. His constant platform is change and hope and all this other nonsense, mainly beating the opposition drum of the DNP, but he has obviously been quite averse to the risk of actually proposing real change in policy. If anything he really illuminates the lack of any meaningful difference between the parties.

I think in the end Obama will be but one more affirmation of my basic assumption about the Federal government: No person able to gain an office on the national stage will ever be worth voting for. The prerequisites of each of those are mutually exclusive.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:53 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Look at the nuanced differences, though. I think he vastly differs from the Bush era (and from what McCain presented).

First, he seems completely unwilling to use FEAR as a way of garnering political support. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Giuliani, McCain, all used fear of terrorism, fear of losing a war, fear of being unpatriotic as ways to intimidate people away from voting for their opponents. And social / religious conservatives (like Palin and Huckabee) used fear as well -- fear of values being threatened and implicit fear of Obama just being different. It was a manichean argument and a Machiavellian strategy. I haven't heard any such thing from Obama, and I don't believe he's willing to use such a tactic. The message of HOPE was incredibly persuasive and refreshing when contrasted against the fearmongering of the Bush administration.

Second, Obama is thoughtful in a way that one has rarely seen in modern politics. With the Rev. Wright situation, he didn't play the obvious political game by simply cutting a cord and distancing himself. He chose to treat the American public like adults, and in so doing gave one of the greatest speeches about race in American history -- which was all the bolder since race was really not at all part of his message. With the economic situation, he avoided McCain's melodrama with his flight to DC, he let the experts be the experts, and he did not commit to an opinion until he had fully heard the proposals from the administration, the treasury and fed, and from congress.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 01:59 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Look at the nuanced differences, though. I think he vastly differs from the Bush era (and from what McCain presented).

First, he seems completely unwilling to use FEAR as a way of garnering political support. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Giuliani, McCain, all used fear of terrorism, fear of losing a war, fear of being unpatriotic as ways to intimidate people away from voting for their opponents. And social / religious conservatives (like Palin and Huckabee) used fear as well -- fear of values being threatened and implicit fear of Obama just being different. It was a manichean argument and a Machiavellian strategy. I haven't heard any such thing from Obama, and I don't believe he's willing to use such a tactic. The message of HOPE was incredibly persuasive and refreshing when contrasted against the fearmongering of the Bush administration.


As I said before, there is no difference between the politics of fear and the politics of hope. They are both rhetorical methods that give a candidate political support without forcing the candidate to actually say anything substantive.

After all, would you disagree that the principle reason Obama won was the fear of four more years of conservative economic policy?

Quote:
Second, Obama is thoughtful in a way that one has rarely seen in modern politics. With the Rev. Wright situation, he didn't play the obvious political game by simply cutting a cord and distancing himself. He chose to treat the American public like adults, and in so doing gave one of the greatest speeches about race in American history -- which was all the bolder since race was really not at all part of his message. With the economic situation, he avoided McCain's melodrama with his flight to DC, he let the experts be the experts, and he did not commit to an opinion until he had fully heard the proposals from the administration, the treasury and fed, and from congress.


I don't think you should confuse thoughtful moves with calculated moves.

To me both of those events you brought up display the same Obama I was referring to. He didn't address the sentiment of Wright's comments, he simply brushed them aside by saying they were offensive and devisive. As far as I know, he just went with the tides on the bailout package.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 02:16 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;33351 wrote:
As I said before, there is no difference between the politics of fear and the politics of hope.
Except that the politics of fear is contingent upon making people feel powerless and uninvolved; but the politics of hope is contingent upon making people feel empowered. It's a critical difference. People who are fearful will submit to abuses of power.

Quote:
After all, would you disagree that the principle reason Obama won was the fear of four more years of conservative economic policy?
No, he won because it was already so bad and the country had someone to blame. Not because they feared more of it. Furthermore, I'd remind you that it wasn't conservative economic policy that he was arguing against. The Republican party of 1980 and of 1994 were fiscally conservative. The Republican party of 2008 is every bit as fiscally liberal as the Democratic party, they just spend their money on different things.

Not to mention that long before this economic crisis hit, Bush was already one of the least popular presidents in American history. In 2005, especially after Hurricane Katrina, Bush's popularity levels hit the tank. He was regarded as incompetent, as bungling Iraq, as pissing away our credibility in global esteem, and his party got its ass handed to it in the 2006 midterm elections... and that had nothing at all to do with the current mortgage and financial meltdown.

So Obama may have capitalized on preexisting resentment towards the Republican party, but it's only because they brought it on themselves. That's why change was such an effective message. And McCain's inability to distance himself from Bush is the primary reason why he as a candidate was a pathetic shell of the 2000 version of himself.

Quote:
I don't think you should confuse thoughtful moves with calculated moves.
That's pretty cynical. Why can't both be true?

Quote:
He didn't address the sentiment of Wright's comments, he simply brushed them aside by saying they were offensive and devisive.
That's utter and complete nonsense. You clearly are unaware of the magnificent speech Obama gave on race. So here it is for you in its full text. Ask yourself the last time a politician has ever talked about race so intelligently, so maturely, and in a way that gives his audience credit for being independent thinkers. In fact in many ways he reproduces the great Cornel West's arguments about endemic nihilism in the black community.

Obama Race Speech: Read The Full Text

Here is a SMALL part of the speech:
Quote:
A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families - a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods - parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement - all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

This is the reality in which Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late fifties and early sixties, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted. What's remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn't make it - those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations - those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings.

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright's sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 05:02 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Except that the politics of fear is contingent upon making people feel powerless and uninvolved; but the politics of hope is contingent upon making people feel empowered. It's a critical difference. People who are fearful will submit to abuses of power.


People who are hopeful will submit to abuses of power just as soon. Obama immediately steps into the office with just as much power as Bush had after 9/11 because of the political climate. Obama has a "mandate" because of his "political capital", to use Bush's terms.

Just like Bush (and just like many dictators of past), people have emotion invested in Obama and the democratic party right now. They will permit and support these figures far past the limits that reason would justify.

I would also like to point out two things:

The fear of the Nazis and Japanese did not make American people feel powerless and uninvolved, it sparked a great period of empowerment and involvement in social and civil activities.

The hope for a Third Reich led otherwise rational German people to allow their democratically elected government render themselves completely powerless and uninvolved. Their hope led to the destruction of their country.

Quote:
No, he won because it was already so bad and the country had someone to blame. Not because they feared more of it. Furthermore, I'd remind you that it wasn't conservative economic policy that he was arguing against. The Republican party of 1980 and of 1994 were fiscally conservative. The Republican party of 2008 is every bit as fiscally liberal as the Democratic party, they just spend their money on different things.

Not to mention that long before this economic crisis hit, Bush was already one of the least popular presidents in American history. In 2005, especially after Hurricane Katrina, Bush's popularity levels hit the tank. He was regarded as incompetent, as bungling Iraq, as pissing away our credibility in global esteem, and his party got its ass handed to it in the 2006 midterm elections... and that had nothing at all to do with the current mortgage and financial meltdown.

So Obama may have capitalized on preexisting resentment towards the Republican party, but it's only because they brought it on themselves. That's why change was such an effective message. And McCain's inability to distance himself from Bush is the primary reason why he as a candidate was a pathetic shell of the 2000 version of himself.
Exactly, Obama made people afraid of a second George W. Bush.

Either way, hope and fear, go hand in hand.

Quote:
That's pretty cynical. Why can't both be true?
Because the calculations do not deal with the issue at hand.

One cannot be concerned with truthfulness and be worried about the costs of truthfulness at the same time.

Quote:
That's utter and complete nonsense. You clearly are unaware of the magnificent speech Obama gave on race. So here it is for you in its full text. Ask yourself the last time a politician has ever talked about race so intelligently, so maturely, and in a way that gives his audience credit for being independent thinkers. In fact in many ways he reproduces the great Cornel West's arguments about endemic nihilism in the black community.
Here is a SMALL part of the speech:
I am familiar with the speech. It is a wonderful speech and an inspiring message.

Let me give you a task, though: cite one portion of that speech that would be disputed by any somewhat major political official. None of them would. He said absolutely nothing particularly insightful nothing particularly controversial.

If I were to take this speech as his actual views, I would actually believe myself, a 26 year old white man, to be more concerned with the status of blacks in this country. Then again I have not got my hopes too high for my political future.

He focused solely on the effect the past had on the present, as if we would all be square if blacks hadn't been oppressed in the past. This is still a very actively discriminatory nation and government is still complicit in it, and I would probably take him to be a little more sincere if he stated that his preacher's anger was righteous.

In dealing with Wright's comments:

Perhaps he could have agreed that we have engaged in state terrorism?

Perhaps he could agree that our violent foreign policy throughout the Middle East over the past 60 years had a good deal to do with the hatred for America across that region.

Perhaps he could agree that our government is secretive and untruthful at all levels.

He could have even pointed out that Wright's comments aren't rooted in an anti-white attitude, but a real and nonracial moral concern for the actions of this country.

If he really wants change, he would have, like MLK and his pastor, called out the US Government for its evils.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2008 09:20 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;33374 wrote:
People who are hopeful will submit to abuses of power just as soon.
Like what? Seems to me that hopeful people do things like lead revolutions and major social movements.

Quote:
Obama immediately steps into the office with just as much power as Bush had after 9/11 because of the political climate.
Not even close. Obama's mandate is one that people will evaluate over 1-2 presidential terms, or at minimum by the time of the midterm elections. Bush's mandate after 9/11 was a matter of hours, days, and weeks -- impose security and intelligence measures, then form an international coalition and a response. No one had a problem with all flights being grounded, Manhattan being completely closed off, etc. Obama's only urgent mandate is to fix the economy, which is something that everyone knows is far beyond quick fixes. His other mandates, like fixing our international standing and calming down our destructive political climate are not urgent and everyone knows they will take time.

Quote:
Just like Bush (and just like many dictators of past), people have emotion invested in Obama and the democratic party right now. They will permit and support these figures far past the limits that reason would justify.
I doubt it.

Quote:
The fear of the Nazis and Japanese did not make American people feel powerless and uninvolved, it sparked a great period of empowerment and involvement in social and civil activities.
You're missing a few steps in between the two. There was a massive military draft and the sudden creation of a huge war industry that effectively ended the great depression (and brought employment and wealth to women and to African Americans). And which period of "empowerment in social and civil activities" are you referring to? The one that happened more than 20 years later in the 1960s?

Quote:
The hope for a Third Reich led otherwise rational German people to allow their democratically elected government render themselves completely powerless and uninvolved. Their hope led to the destruction of their country.
They were not hopeful. It was a power sharing government that ended a period of civil war. No one other than the Nazis themselves (who LOST the election in 1933) actually believed that drivel about a Third Reich. And the Reichstag fire is perhaps history's greatest example of where a dictator exploited a catastrophe (yes, manufactured in that case) to seize power. It certainly wasn't hope that allowed Hitler to do that.

Quote:
Exactly, Obama made people afraid of a second George W. Bush.
You're desperately trying to twist my viewpoint into yours, but it's not working. Bush had an approval rating under 30% before Obama ever declared his candidacy. Fear of a third Bush term was a common theme used by the Obama campaign, but it was unnecessary -- the country was independently trying to expunge itself of the Bush era.

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One cannot be concerned with truthfulness and be worried about the costs of truthfulness at the same time.
One can also be selective about what one says and when one says it while still being truthful. It's called self-discipline.

Quote:
I am familiar with the speech.
Not familiar enough to have prevented you from saying the following:
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
He didn't address the sentiment of Wright's comments, he simply brushed them aside by saying they were offensive and devisive.
How do you reconcile your stated familiarity with the speech with that clearly incorrect assessment of its contents?

Quote:
Let me give you a task, though: cite one portion of that speech that would be disputed by any somewhat major political official. None of them would. He said absolutely nothing particularly insightful nothing particularly controversial.
I'm afraid I no longer have any idea what kind of point you're trying to make. I don't know what people may or may not dispute. But I can tell you that few other major politicians ever in the history of this country would ever have delivered a speech of that sort. It's easy to dismiss and condemn. It's not easy to explain.

Furthermore, you seem to be reluctant to acknowledge that he might have actually meant what he said in that speech.

All these things you think he should have said may actually differ from his views. Furthermore, he waged a campaign in which he was fully able to criticize his own country's actions and policies without using inflammatory language like "we have engaged in state terrorism".
Joe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2008 12:27 pm
@Aedes,
Its seems that there are two views a-cooking here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but One side is taking the age old concept of hope and faith, while the other is pointing out positive and negative reflections of Obama's actions and statements.

................An argument that i think is doomed to never convince one side unless a focal point is reached to balance these statements that come from two different, subjugated, areas.
 

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