1
   

Stupidity: A Real Problem or Not?

 
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 11:42 am
@chad3006,
As I think about the post, I would say that we are all probably stupid about something, using this definition:

Stupid - unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information

Call in blinders if you will. Something we might see in others, but cannot see in ourselves.

So stupidity is probably as much of a problem as death. It is pervasive. Smile

Rich
Catchabula
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 12:23 pm
@Khethil,
Just musing a bit on this...
-Ignorance is intelligence wthout information.
-Stupidity does not exist, ignorance only exists for some time.
-Neither ignorance or stupidity are desired by those who are accused of it.
-Accusing people of stupidity is part of a plan. This plan intends also to keep them ignorant.
-Keeping others stupid and ignorant is a plan conceived by certain people who are themselves neither stupid nor ignorant.
-Ignorance and stupidity are incompatible with freedom. They disappear like snow in the sun with the appearance and the influence of freedom.
-Calling "free thinking" only a rhetorical notion is also a part of the plan. Not freedom but stupidity and ignorance are rhetorical notions.
-Humility and stupidity are opposites. Humility and self-critique are a most clear indication of intelligence.
-Intelligent people will be very cautious with the notion "stupidity". Sometimes they will call themselves stupid, but even then they won't believe it. But they will often speak about ignorance, being convinced that it will pass like puberty or the meazzles.
-Socrates was killed because he said all this way better (and without referring to an evil plot).
-A pessimist is a blindfolded optimist, an optimist is an enlightened pessimist Smile .
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 12:37 pm
@richrf,
richrf;82569 wrote:
As I think about the post, I would say that we are all probably stupid about something, using this definition:

Stupid - unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information

Call in blinders if you will. Something we might see in others, but cannot see in ourselves.

So stupidity is probably as much of a problem as death. It is pervasive. Smile

Rich


It may be stupid to be unwilling to properly consider the relevant information, but that is not what stupidity is. You are confusing the "is" of predication with the "is" of identity. It is like thinking that because butter is yellow, that butter is the same thing as yellow. And that is not stupid so much as confused.
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 01:27 pm
@kennethamy,
I wonder how accurate those polls are. What are the sources for each of them? Is there any overlap?

I would be willing to bet the Maher isn't too sharp on Economic theory and statistics, both of which which would be very relevant to his decision making. The biggest flaw with elitism is that virtually no one is sufficiently elite, and Maher certainly is not up there with the true intellectual giants. The next biggest flaw is that there is no way to decisivley agree on a bar; I might be an idiot compared to the guy who could do differential equations when he was 3, while I might be brilliant compared to some random guy in the streets of Hazard.

I want to point out (about the 18% who think the sun revolves around the earth) that roughly 18% of people have boarderline cognative functioning. Also, certain areas have high concentration of low intellegence/education population. All of the relavent factors must be presented along with polling statistics.

The last thing I want to point out is that intelligence, being totally relative, requires total equality to eliminate the perception of stupidity. So if we kill everyone who is reasonably intelligent leaving only buffoons, we have the same effect as when we kill of of the buffoons and reasonably intelligent people, or just everyone but the reasonably intelligent. Solving the problem of the perception of stupidity entails bringing everyone to the same level, a problem that has thus far proven to be insurmountable.
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 02:20 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula;82577 wrote:

-Socrates was killed because he said this way better (and without accusing others Smile ).


Hi there Catchabula,

I read the apology. Whether or not it is a accurate picture of the Trial, I do not know. But I can tell you, I was laughing throughout the read. Talk about someone who is either stupid or ignorant or both? Socrates comes off as a real buffoon when it comes to understanding human nature.

Hmmm ... did I just say that?? :bigsmile:

Rich

---------- Post added 08-11-2009 at 03:23 PM ----------

kennethamy;82578 wrote:
It may be stupid to be unwilling to properly consider the relevant information, but that is not what stupidity is.


I just chose this an an example. I pretty much think that any definition can probably be applied to oneself. I am very egalitarian about this.

Rich

---------- Post added 08-11-2009 at 03:28 PM ----------

Zetetic11235;82586 wrote:
I want to point out (about the 18% who think the sun revolves around the earth) that roughly 18% of people have boarderline cognative functioning. Also, certain areas have high concentration of low intellegence/education population. All of the relavent factors must be presented along with polling statistics.


But suppose these 18% people are operating fine in their environment. This is what they believe and it works for them. Why is that stupid or low intelligence. I know lots of well informed people who I believe are very much uniformed (e.g. health and lifestyle practices). Are they stupid, uninformed, low intelligence, uneducated, or what? I choose to believe that they are simply living their own lives.

Zetetic11235;82586 wrote:
Solving the problem of the perception of stupidity entails bringing everyone to the same level, a problem that has thus far proven to be insurmountable.


And it may not be a problem at all. Vive la difference!

Rich
TheSingingSword
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 02:37 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;82521 wrote:
To what extent is this a problem in the US?
If it is, indeed, a problem - what might be the solution?

From time to time I see reports, surveys and/or articles detailing some of the most outlandish responses people give to - what I perceive to be - some very basic 'truths' about current events, the country we live in, history and so on. Here are some examples from Bill Maher's article New Rule: Smart President ≠ Smart Country - except where set off by brackets, all are direct quotes:

  • On the eve of the Iraq War, 69% of Americans thought Saddam Hussein was personally involved in 9/11. Four years later, 34% still did.

  • At a recent town-hall meeting [regarding Healthcare] in South Carolina, a man stood up and told his Congressman to "keep your government hands off my Medicare," which is kind of like driving cross country to protest highways.

  • ...polls show that a majority of Americans cannot name a single branch of government, or explain what the Bill of Rights is

  • ... 24% could not name the country America fought in the Revolutionary War.

  • More than two-thirds of Americans don't know what's in Roe v. Wade.

  • Two-thirds don't know what the Food and Drug Administration does.

  • Nearly half of Americans don't know that states have two senators and more than half can't name their congressman.

  • And among Republican governors, only 30% got their wife's name right on the first try [unable to discern if he's just being sarcastic here or using vocalized pauses to inject a point]

  • Sarah Palin says she would never apologize for America. Even though a Gallup poll says 18% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth.

  • A third of Republicans believe Obama is not a citizen, and a third of Democrats believe that George Bush had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks

  • The average voter thinks foreign aid consumes 24% of our federal budget. It's actually less than 1%.

  • But here's one fun fact you can take away: did you know only about half of Americans are aware that Judaism is an older religion than Christianity? That's right, half of America looks at books called the Old Testament and the New Testament and cannot figure out which one came first.

Maher's text may be in dispute - I wouldn't swallow it all. But there are quite a few other sources which often speak of the same theme: We're not too smart. Is this political slandering or a real problem? I tend to think there's at least something to this issue since its come up so many times from many different sources.

Please discuss - and I'd ask that we try and stay centered on the theme "Is this a problem? Why? How?, etc".

Thanks

Most of us here probably enjoy searching for knowledge. I can't help myself, I am interested in knowing as much about everything as I can. It's hardly a choice, because it is how I pass my time. It is my leisure activity. That being said, a lot of information in the universe is really not needed by your average man. A farmer needs to know how to raise crops from the ground, when to harvest, how and when to slaughter, etc., but he really doesn't need to know how much foreign aid his country gives out, etc. Take the Indians, for example, they were considered quite stupid and childish, but they had a society that for a thousand years functioned far better than western civilization. Everything is relative. I tend to gravitate towards people who are around the same level of intelligence and knowledge as myself, and I must say that we are probably less happy than many "stupid" people. I suppose it takes all kinds, and I really don't believe it's much of a problem. Even ignorant people have a nose for right and wrong, sometimes more so.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 03:19 pm
@richrf,
richrf;82597 wrote:
I just chose this an an example. I pretty much think that any definition can probably be applied to oneself. I am very egalitarian about this.


Examples are not definitions. Socrates (or "the buffoon" as you called him) pointed that out many years ago. You might read him, and learn something. Who knows?
0 Replies
 
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 04:27 pm
@EverlastingZen,
EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
In 1972, a French plant imported this uranium ore. To their great surprise, chemical examinations showed that this ore had already been extracted and utilized, therefore they sent people of science to the country to investigate, and scientists from many other countries went there, too. They confirmed, at last, that this uranium ore was in fact a large-scale nuclear reactor, which was so well laid out that it would be impossible even for modern people to produce it. Then when was it completed? It was two billion years ago that it was completed, and it had been in operation for about 500000 years.


This is a good article explaining this phenomenon:
The Workings of an Ancient Nuclear Reactor: Scientific American
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 05:25 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;82521 wrote:
To what extent is this a problem in the US?
If it is, indeed, a problem - what might be the solution?
Maher's text may be in dispute - I wouldn't swallow it all. But there are quite a few other sources which often speak of the same theme: We're not too smart. Is this political slandering or a real problem? I tend to think there's at least something to this issue since its come up so many times from many different sources.
Thanks


Great thread Khethil. Do you realize how many teenagers are graduating from our public schools who cannot read the words on their diplomas? A educational system that is funded, endorsed by this very government in it's politically correct ideas of what an education "should be".

Caroline;82540 wrote:
Personally I believe that Bush was made president to serve a small group of people, (puppet on a string), and we must not forget that the average American are nice people and not stupid, I for one have gained alot from America.


Thank you Caroline. If you and we all knew how true that statement is- "puppet on a string"- as it relates to all our "chosen politicians"? Hmmm? It is an undisputable fact that the one who spends the most money "wins". There may be a few exceptions, but I can think of any.

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
Stupidity: Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.....We are here because we want the opinions of people worth getting opinions from. Not the stupid people that walk around like drones in this world doing as they are told without wanting to know why they are doing it.


In all due respect, I disagree with your assumption here as to "worth". What does that mean? IMO, you are confusing stupidity with ignorance in that it is the ignorant who are wandering around and "intelligence" has nothing to do with it. There are very smart people who do some really stupid things out of a convenient "ignorance". Those are not "stupid people" wandering around"; they are those who have been programmed to being "told" what to do or "pay the price".

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
As for the original post, I have felt this way for many years if not most of my life. I look around and see people that don't know more than what directly affects their lives and even some that know very little about that.


Whose fault is that? Is it their's, or those who "control" their existence as they threaten those innocent lives if they do not do what they are told and taught. That's built in to our educational system as we "grade" those who "can" learn to follow "orders and obey" as those young minds are used and drained to a level of incompetency as they are highly paid for their services rendered.


EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
Most don't know that Paganism is one of the oldest know religions, older than any of the 5 major branches of Christianity (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant) which I also feel the need to point out they all have different views on the same religion and "word of god" they bring hatred and chaos to this world all in the attempt to call themselves the correct path and people blindly follow.


I am curious? Why did you leave the "Old Testament" and it's "estranged brother", the Koran, out of your opinion considering those tenets claim to know the "word of God"?


EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
Most don't even know the bible has been rewritten at least 3 know times and had information added and removed to better suit mankind's needs.


I couldn't have said it better myself. Now "who" would do such a thing? Perhaps those of "mankind, not humankind" who just wrongly assumed their autonomous piety as they sat on their "godly thrones" professing to be gods or ordain by god himself? Hmm?


EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
I am not diving into that issue any further because I don't feel the need to spend the next week debating religion but the point can be summed up as simple as witch-hunts. These hunts were caused by the teachings of the church. The Hebrew Bible condemns sorcery. Deuteronomy 18:11-12 calls it an "abomination" and Exodus 22:18 prescribes "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and tales like that of 1 Samuel 28, reporting how Saul "hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land" suggesting that in practice, sorcery could at least lead to exile.


Now you bring up the "old testament". Thank you. If I were a woman, I guess I would resort to my feminine wiles and intuition to survive in this "man made reality" he calls "mankind" not "humankind". That would piss me off too, as a matter of a fact. We don't call nature and all it's grandeur and beauty, "Mother" for nothing which, as far as we know can be equated to all her fury and acts of God, himself. Which can also explain the imbalance of the "heavens and the earth" brought on by "mankinds" wrongful assumptions and his "depiction of woman". Hmmm? Wow, I can get "out there". Ha!

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
Ignorance and Stupidity both lead to pain, suffering, and death. Wars are started and continued because of mans lack of desire to learn or know but also the immense desire to criticize, hate, kill, and hurt because of false information.


Great comment. I agree. Now we need to ask, I think, who is ignorant and stupid; those men who sit on those thrones or those they have the "means" to rule as they maintain a "cost to live on this planet" Hmm?

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
People walk the streets and a hurt, scolded and damned because a small group of people decided to run some jet airliners into some building. I have seen Indians hurt and scolded because they are Al-Qaeda as well as many others. What is wrong with this world and the people in it...?


In all due respect, you speak of this with a triviality that is hard to reason. "a small group of people decided..........". That sounds a bit naive to me. Again, in all due respect.

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
People will blindly follow what TV and other media tells them and it is sick and it will someday destroy us all. I will cut this short but there are so many other events and issues that are caused by a lack of knowledge.


Brilliant observation. Might I offer it is not knowledge, but the wrongful use of it that is the problem. As I have often espoused it is not genius that is wrong, but went the results of that genius fall's into the wrong hands (that genius often funded by those "wrong hands") that it becomes wrong as I once again refer to one of my favorite quotes of Einstein, paraphrasing, "..if we don't stop competing and start communicating and cooperating, the war we fight after the next one will be with stones".

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:


Considering, we, arguably, barely got to the moon, and pardon my own ignorance, but for one to make such an accessment, seems a bit on the side of hubris in that how we could possibly know all the micro/macrocosm that represents that universe we are a part of to make such a statement, in all due respect.

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:
......I can go on forever.


As a matter of personal opinion, I think you will. In that context, we do indeed have a lot to learn. Would you not agree?

EverlastingZen;82544 wrote:


Could it be they are too busy "earning a right to live on this planet" and the price that is dictated for them to pay to have that right? IMO, there is a big difference in "looking" and "seeing". Looking is what we do to "find" answers; and seeing negates the need to look, as I am of the opinion that is "god in motion" as we see together all with our different perceptions working together for the "common good" for all.

chad3006;82567 wrote:
It makes no difference to me what word we use (stupid or ignorant). If we choose to use the word ignorance, I think we must realize that some of this is a forced ignorance. That takes some energy on the part of the ignoramus. Constant distractions, like action movies, beer, (not that I don't like the occasional brew), and "multi-media" devices help reinforce the ignorance. Of course, I live in Texas, and that's is my perspective. :bigsmile:


Well put. I live in the "Lone Star State too". Fancy that. Howdy, pardner. Ha!

William
0 Replies
 
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 06:57 pm
@richrf,
richrf;82597 wrote:
Hi there Catchabula,

But suppose these 18% people are operating fine in their environment. This is what they believe and it works for them. Why is that stupid or low intelligence. I know lots of well informed people who I believe are very much uniformed (e.g. health and lifestyle practices). Are they stupid, uninformed, low intelligence, uneducated, or what? I choose to believe that they are simply living their own lives.



And it may not be a problem at all. Vive la difference!

Rich


If they are operating optimally in their environment, then all is well and good so long as they do not disturb the well being of another environment. These 18% of people are not isolated. Nor are the 30%+ that most would consider fairly slow. Many people I meet just during regular activity seem to me to be dangerously dim-witted, and I wonder to what degree this might affect me negatively. The problem is that I might appear dangerously dim witted to a very slender portion of the population, and they might appear so to an even more slender portion.

Whenever a person can be outmaneuvered by those in power, it is dangerous to everyone who is generally able to avoid such coercion. This fear of a dangerously dim witted public is what drives elitism. It is not enough to simply be well informed, you need to be able to cut through B.S. There are unfortunately a great many people who cannot do so.

If elitism is a position of fear, however, Epicureanism is a liberation from that fear. Can each individual liberate themselves from manipulation? Can each person develop themselves to the degree that they do not endanger society en mass? If so, should such development be considered a necessary responsibility of the individual in order to fully participate in society? What if they cannot? These are important, yet difficult and contentious questions.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 07:10 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;82649 wrote:
If elitism is a position of fear, however, Epicureanism is a liberation from that fear. Can each individual liberate themselves from manipulation? Can each person develop themselves to the degree that they do not endanger society en mass? If so, should such development be considered a necessary responsibility of the individual in order to fully participate in society? What if they cannot? These are important, yet difficult and contentious questions.


Sounds like the possibility for another thread. But you probably know by now where I stand. If I thought I knew the answers, I would tell people how to live. But I don't have the answers, so I am in the same boat as everyone else. Who am I to say?

For example, people tell me all the time I should go to doctors. People who are much worse physical condition than I am. People who apparently have higher degrees than me and possibly have read more Shakespeare. Maybe spent years and years in medical school. But am I really that stupid to listen to them and then turn out like them? Hmmm ... So, .... live and let live.

Rich
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 07:51 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;82521 wrote:
A third of Republicans believe Obama is not a citizen
I live in North Carolina, a BLUE state I've lived in for two years (I'm a born and bred New Englander) and I'm proud to say the state voted for Obama, we have a Democratic governor, one of our two senators is a Democrat, and 8 of our 13 congressmen are Democrats.

A poll of 700 state residents came out yesterday in which only 24% of Republicans believed Obama is a citizen, despite having a birth certificate from Hawaii.

But then again, in the poll, 10% of those polled did not believe that Hawaii was part of the United States. :nonooo:



It's hard to separate stupidity from ignorance. In this case, I think that people who don't like the president will suck up whatever conspiracy gets fed to them -- and that is neither stupidity nor ignorance -- it's emotion. And the people feeding it to them are exploitative, not stupid.
0 Replies
 
Serena phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 04:13 am
@Khethil,
As stated, these are merely examples of ignorance. Where ignorance lacks knowledge, stupidity lacks ability or logic. Stubbornness sort of falls in between the two which is failure to be reasoned with or understand.

Babies are not born with this knowledge, this is information that requires education which everyone cannot attain. The real problem is lack of education or proper education and occasionally stupidity or stubbornness can be a result of this. But it still does not necessarily intervene with intelligence.

However, this is only selective education which none of this information is really mandatory to learn, although it may help if you wish to become a registered voter. It is possible to to live a happy prosperous life without ever acquiring this information. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
hadad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 04:41 pm
@Serena phil,
Though I think stupidity is a problem in the USA, I wouldn't confuse it with ignorance, which is far more of a pandemic here.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 06:24 pm
@richrf,
richrf;82653 wrote:
Sounds like the possibility for another thread. But you probably know by now where I stand. If I thought I knew the answers, I would tell people how to live. But I don't have the answers, so I am in the same boat as everyone else. Who am I to say?

For example, people tell me all the time I should go to doctors. People who are much worse physical condition than I am. People who apparently have higher degrees than me and possibly have read more Shakespeare. Maybe spent years and years in medical school. But am I really that stupid to listen to them and then turn out like them? Hmmm ... So, .... live and let live.

Rich

What does that question at the end even mean? No one has all the answers (whatever that means) but some people certainly have more answers than other people. I mean educated and intelligent people, of course, rather than uneducated and unintelligent people.
0 Replies
 
Labyrinth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 06:50 pm
@TheSingingSword,
TheSingingSword;82601 wrote:
Most of us here probably enjoy searching for knowledge. I can't help myself, I am interested in knowing as much about everything as I can. It's hardly a choice, because it is how I pass my time. It is my leisure activity. That being said, a lot of information in the universe is really not needed by your average man. A farmer needs to know how to raise crops from the ground, when to harvest, how and when to slaughter, etc., but he really doesn't need to know how much foreign aid his country gives out, etc. Take the Indians, for example, they were considered quite stupid and childish, but they had a society that for a thousand years functioned far better than western civilization. Everything is relative. I tend to gravitate towards people who are around the same level of intelligence and knowledge as myself, and I must say that we are probably less happy than many "stupid" people. I suppose it takes all kinds, and I really don't believe it's much of a problem. Even ignorant people have a nose for right and wrong, sometimes more so.


Bingo. A look at the list leads one to question oneself...what utility might the average American have for such knowledge? Especially in a society where one's profession seemingly engulfs and defines a person, the American is more focused on know-how. A guy may not know his state's senators (as I don't either :Not-Impressed:), but most will probably not know how to replace a heater's thermocouple like he does. If he chooses to do so even if unrightful, he may call someone stupid for not knowing how to do such a simple thing. I'm sorry but, this survey isn't as revealing as it wishes to be. Its not hard to find tidbits of information people don't know and blast them for it. I believe there's a show hanging on this gimmick where contestants play trivia against 5th graders?

"But these are things everyone should know?" Who's to determine that? One's basic knowledge can be heiroglyphics to another.
TheSingingSword
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 04:06 pm
@Labyrinth,
Labyrinth;83110 wrote:
Bingo. A look at the list leads one to question oneself...what utility might the average American have for such knowledge? Especially in a society where one's profession seemingly engulfs and defines a person, the American is more focused on know-how. A guy may not know his state's senators (as I don't either :Not-Impressed:), but most will probably not know how to replace a heater's thermocouple like he does. If he chooses to do so even if unrightful, he may call someone stupid for not knowing how to do such a simple thing. I'm sorry but, this survey isn't as revealing as it wishes to be. Its not hard to find tidbits of information people don't know and blast them for it. I believe there's a show hanging on this gimmick where contestants play trivia against 5th graders?

"But these are things everyone should know?" Who's to determine that? One's basic knowledge can be heiroglyphics to another.

I often think about it this way:

If the economy completely tanks or nuclear holocaust hits, etc., the knowledge of a great many things will be needed, including hunting, fishing, husbandry, carpentry, masonry, well-digging, tracking, trapping, natural medicine, and the list goes on. A lot of the people with "superior knowledge" in this country never took the time to learn the basics, and would be begging for support from a lot of "stupid" people.:bigsmile:
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 04:11 pm
@TheSingingSword,
TheSingingSword;83314 wrote:
I often think about it this way:

If the economy completely tanks or nuclear holocaust hits, etc., the knowledge of a great many things will be needed, including hunting, fishing, husbandry, carpentry, masonry, well-digging, tracking, trapping, natural medicine, and the list goes on. A lot of the people with "superior knowledge" in this country never took the time to learn the basics, and would be begging for support from a lot of "stupid" people.:bigsmile:


Whether or not there is a nuclear holocaust, all of these things are very nice things to know. A beggar, for example, knows how to survive by living on the street. They add to the flavor of life. I hope to add these things to other things that I have done in my life - but I know I will not do all.

Rich
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 04:14 pm
@richrf,
richrf;83317 wrote:
Whether or not there is a nuclear holocaust, all of these things are very nice things to know. A beggar, for example, knows how to survive by living on the street. They add to the flavor of life. I hope to add these things to other things that I have done in my life - but I know I will not do all.

Rich


You aspire to be a beggar living on the street? Now, that's all we need! Let me know (if you have a laptop). That will be cute. A beggar with a laptop.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 04:16 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;83318 wrote:
You aspire to be a beggar living on the street? Now, that's all we need!


It's a skill, that I dear say very few people could do. I respect them for figuring out how to live. At least they are not fear mongering to make a living.

Rich
 

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