Atheists...

@Didymos Thomas,

Aren't you just sore because you thnk your losing your imaginary friend!
My daughter had an imaginary friend, and years later neither of us could recall the name of that imaginary friend, it was lost to her formative years.

YouTube - Christopher Hitchens: Christianity is not imposed?!

YouTube - 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

YouTube - Christopher Hitchens: God Isn't Great

YouTube - Sam Harris Debates Conservative Christian Hugh Hewitt - Part
1/2

YouTube - Sam Harris Debates Conservative Christian Hugh Hewitt - 2/2

1 Reply

@boagie,

Speaking of candles in the dark!

YouTube - The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

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@boagie,

Boagie:),
You generaly seem to be a reasonable fellow. Might I suggest that this subject is a bit too personal for you, such that it is preventing you from having a reasonable discussion on the matter?

Perhaps it would be best for you to take a step back and away from this thread for a bit, lest you allow your predjudices to leak into your otherwise competent style of argumentation.

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@Zetetic11235,

That's truely creative!! Smile

The only way to prove to me that religion, the popular brand, is honest, is to prove this fairy god father is a reality. The ignorant majority, can nolonger silence, as time for sanity has come.

YouTube - Daniel Dennett Interview (2006)

YouTube - Professor Stephen Hawking Speaks Out agaist the CSE on YT!

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@boagie,

As you know, spamming is frowned upon by this forum. It is quite odd that a staff member act in gross disregard of this. Com'on, Boagie, is it really necessary?

I don't know if you are living in some fantasy world where everyone is an fundamentalist evangelical christian and if there were no evangelical christians the world would be a better place and all of the problems associated with fundamentalist evangelicals would dissappear, but at least don't be a hippocrite. Stop this goofy "Do as I say not as I do" rhetoric. Stop shoving your ideas in our faces after calling it a vice, stop ignoring reasonable counter argument unless there is a phrase in it you can bend to your benefit as the people about whom you complain would.

I gave you all the niceties I have to offer, I am done. You should be temporarily banned for spamming or this thread should be closed. I am sure you get some leeway, being a staff member and all, but you're still acting against forum rules, and being really obnoxious to boot. I look foreward to you ignoreing my comment.:brickwall:

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@Zetetic11235,

This is the grounds you wish to silence me on----------yes?:devilish:

Your main objections to the expression of a distaste for religion in general is that it is what you have chosen to identify with, and as long as there is one person in the world that a generalization does not apply to, you think it ample reason to supress free expression across the board, at least with this particular topic.:devilish:

All right sports, there is enough viewing available to keep you busy for awhile.:devilish: The devil made me do it!!

Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."
(Sigmund Freud / 1856-1939 / The Future of an Illusion / 1927)

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

This is the grounds you wish to silence me on----------yes?:devilish:

Yes, you are making a fool of yourself, and I am asking you to stop it.

boagie wrote:

Your main objections to the expression of a distaste for religion in general is that it is what you have chosen to identify with, and as long as there is one person in the world that a generalization does not apply to, you think it ample reason to supress free expression across the board, at least with this particular topic.:devilish:

No, I am saying that generalzations of the kind you promote are as dangerous as they are false. You are taking a small minority, one group, belonging to one sect of a single religion, and saying that "It is bad, evil, false ect, therefore all religion is bad, therefore I am justified in my beliefs." Do not attack the group, attack the behavior, for it is found elsewhere.

I don't generally get along with the religious, I have too different a worldview, however this is no grounds on which to attack them. My worldview is generally a sacrifice of the comfort of a false truth or cohesive world view in order that I try remain minimally subjective. Opinions can be quite dangerous things and most often are false all around. The best thing to do when an opinion comes your way is to try to cut it in half, and ask the same of everyone else....in my opinion:D.

boagie wrote:

Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."
(Sigmund Freud / 1856-1939 / The Future of an Illusion / 1927)

Anyone with even a cursory understanding of psychology knows that Freud's ideas are generally outmoded.

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@Zetetic11235,

You have not been listening, these posts are not directed at a single individual, a single sect, a single domination, a single church, a single religion, they are directed at all the irrational faiths around the world, it is saying it is time to get a grip people, we as a global community cannot afford that you continue on with this **it!! If there was a crime for stupidity how would you go about locking this many people up.

President Bush sr says, atheists should not be considered citizens nor should they be consider patriots. Spoken like a true Christian! This was the president of the United States, not just some **it faced redneck.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

You have not been listening, .

well, you would indeed know, you are the master.:sarcastic:

boagie wrote:

these posts are not directed at a single individual, a single sect, a single domination, a single church, a single religion, they are directed at all the irrational faiths around the world, it is saying it is time to get a grip people, we as a global community cannot afford that you continue on with this **it!! If there was a crime for stupidity how would you go about locking this many people up.

Then why are all of the quotes and people under criticism evangelical christians? You are a humanist correct? You are concerned with eliminating religion because you percieve it to be draging everyone down? But is it not simply another arbitrary morality that you are imposing? Somthing which you have no basis for but tradition?

Do you think that humanity can be perfected? That another slew problems would not emerge, as though a hydra and take the place of it? If so it is your optimism, I should think, that steers you away from religion. I know those who believe in a higher power simply because they feel they cannot live in a universe where humans are the paragon of organization and achievement.

I ask you this, for it is the logical conclusion of what you seem to believe. If there was a system which would guarantee maximal good for the totality of humanity, and you had to give up certain freedoms(most of them) in order for it to work, would you do it?

boagie wrote:

President Bush sr says, atheists should not be considered citizens nor should they be consider patriots. Spoken like a true Christian! This was the president of the United States, not just some **it faced redneck.

He was both,:disappointed: and that was the eighties.:disappointed: God I hate Reagan. And the eighties.

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@Zetetic11235,

Zetetic,

Actually I have not pinpointed anyone or any group if you wish to identify with the generalized discreption of irrationality, its your process go to it.
The reason Christianity is prominent I guess, let me see, could it be that Christianity is the major religion of north amercia. No I am not a humanist, would you like me to be? What purpose would that serve? Would I do it, I have done it and I hope to do it again, no seriously, if I was to fulcrum point for the well being of the world, yes I think I would give up much to that end. You guys want this to be personal, that is what your working towards, if its personal you have a right to take offense, but sadly for you two, it is not personal, silly is just plain silly it apparently has universal appeal.

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@boagie,

I just learned on CBC news that it was Confucius who said you were only human if you had a son, advocating for sons over daughters. And now look at where the religion has taken the demographics of China.

I say get rid of the whole religion. Get rid of all religions that cause tradition to blind morality by outdated faith.

Also, as a side note, I finally have something to say good about our prime minister. He's not attending the Beijing Olympic ceremonies.:a-ok:

And guess what. Bush is. Laughing

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@Holiday20310401,

Quote:

I just learned on CBC news that it was Confucius who said you were only human if you had a son, advocating for sons over daughters. And now look at where the religion has taken the demographics of China.

I'll have to find that quote. Context is extremely important - we have to remember, Confucius was a very pragmatic thinker. In his time, you needed sons to work the fields. Simple as that.

Quote:

I say get rid of the whole religion. Get rid of all religions that cause tradition to blind morality by outdated faith.

What about a religion that 1) influences people to appeal to tradition in an attempt to ignore morality and 2) influences people to elevate morality over tradition?

Attacking the faith tradition misses the point. It's the way we individuals use the faith tradition that really matters.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Yeah, I don't think Confucius was necessarily wrong or unjustified for saying that back in his time, because the virtue of a son back then I suppose would have seemed better.

I'm saying the get rid of the religion so as to get rid of the traditions that postpone such morals that result in loss of virtue.

And what about tradition for the sake of morality for a change.

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@Holiday20310401,

Quote:

Yeah, I don't think Confucius was necessarily wrong or unjustified for saying that back in his time, because the virtue of a son back then I suppose would have seemed better.

Confucius was a deep thinker by all accounts. The Analects is not a long text, and that first read is well worth the time.

Quote:

I'm saying the get rid of the religion so as to get rid of the traditions that postpone such morals that result in loss of virtue.

And what about tradition for the sake of morality for a change.

I'd be afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water. We can change religions - adjust them to meet modern demands. And we should.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

adjust them to meet modern demands. And we should.

That will never happen unless China adjusts the media concern. People are becoming a little more self aware but as such nothing has changed in terms of how easily the public can be manipulated, I'd bet, ironically anyways.

We might make the minor adjustment through laws, etc, but that will always appear as an insult or biased say to a religion and its people.

People do not belong to religion. Religion belongs to people. (Does that sound good); so why should people get insulted by negation of tradition that has lost value?

And religion seems to evoke that stupidity. I'm sorry, but the best way to me would be to get rid of many of them. At least get rid of extremism, I hope we are on the same side with that one.:listening:

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@Holiday20310401,

Quote:

That will never happen unless China adjusts the media concern. People are becoming a little more self aware but as such nothing has changed in terms of how easily the public can be manipulated, I'd bet, ironically anyways.

Many problems in China. I was speaking more universally - religion does, and should, change to meet modern demands.

Quote:

We might make the minor adjustment through laws, etc, but that will always appear as an insult or biased say to a religion and its people.

Yeah, I don't think law is the medium to be used. Change has to occur on a personal level. Especially spiritual change.

Quote:

People do not belong to religion. Religion belongs to people. (Does that sound good); so why should people get insulted by negation of tradition that has lost value?

Very well said, actually. Sometimes it's hard to tell what tradition has lost value. All depends upon context.

Quote:

And religion seems to evoke that stupidity. I'm sorry, but the best way to me would be to get rid of many of them. At least get rid of extremism, I hope we are on the same side with that one.

Yes, religious extremism is a serious problem. But stamping out whole faith traditions is just as extreme as the religious extremists. No easy answers. The best place to start, however, is probably respond to hate with love.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Many problems in China. I was speaking more universally - religion does, and should, change to meet modern demands.

Yeah I know. Just wanted to relate to China:thats-enough:. Kind of ticked off with how they got Olympics. They are an example of how culture can't perpetuate, let alone have a public based religion.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Yeah, I don't think law is the medium to be used. Change has to occur on a personal level. Especially spiritual change.

Then what to do with media and the education systems throughout most of the world that don't but should be top advocates of such "introspectral intellect". It makes spiritual change less likely. And realisation usually comes gradually as products to violent situations.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Very well said, actually. Sometimes it's hard to tell what tradition has lost value. All depends upon context.

Context being the environment, and state of society?

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Yes, religious extremism is a serious problem. But stamping out whole faith traditions is just as extreme as the religious extremists. No easy answers. The best place to start, however, is probably respond to hate with love.

I'm with Sigmund Freud on this one. We are naturally animals.

Very hard to evoke love from hate. Sometimes we need tolerance, and if something is becoming naturally recursive then lowering the tolerance level only seems appropriate.

Don't you think that culture can sustain without religion? If not then what rational dependency can humanity reach for itself? I think that it would work as a development, progress, if we went from irrational causes/faiths to rational faiths (but not totalitarianism:Cara_2:).

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@Holiday20310401,

Boagie,

I thought it likely that you are a humanist due to your moral stance. It is not of pure atheistic origins, it smack of humanism quite a bit.

I have to say that you have quite a bit of faith in the correctness of your moral stance. No moral stance is rational, it is instinctual, as are all human directives. You simply, want to eliminate the monkeys who are trying to take away the stick with which we harvest ants, the ones who ignore our greatest tool, rationality, and in doing so threaten our survival as a species. This is in the end what all morals boil down to, survival instinct. Even rationality is a tool which we use by instinct.

There is no rational argument for rationality, it would be circular, it is a trait which we use due to our survival instinct, and morals are simply a contract by which we hope to ensure our survival as best we can. Since we are thinking beings, we can put ourselfs in such a position so as to best ensure that we survive. We are thinking beings, but our thoughts are tools only used to bestial ends. In the end, all great acomplishments of man are to no greater ends than the simplest tool made but screeching monkeys.

I might conjecture that if we were to totally deny our anamalistic tendencies, we should wonder whether or not it is more beneficial to our planet or our universe if we simply self terminate. If we cannot consider such a question in ernest, we are where we should be, with the rest of the animals.

You see that those monkeys trying to stop us from grabbing up the twigs to gather our ants because they believe our food shall fall form the sky are risking the well being of all us other monkeys, and you insist that they must be stopped. But you mistep in attacking those who wonder just how right the interloping monkeys are, for those who wonder often see the poison at the ends of the twigs.

I do not consider this personal, I simply want a good conversation.

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@Zetetic11235,

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@Zetetic11235,

Zetetic,

A very interesting insight you have there, yes, the crowded should follow me, as I know where the bananas are. I recall the late Joseph Campbell discussing why much war like behaviour is indicated both in man and the Chimp. It comes down to man like his Chimp cousin need something important to do, the male is the barron one, the female brings forth life and is for a very longtime concern with the nuturing of that life. The concept of home is something which forms around the female like iron vilelings around a magnet. The present terrorist recroupment is due in large part to young men having nothing to do, and apparently no hope for the future, a terrorist statement is the most these young men feel they can accomplish in this life---and lets not forget, the religious indoctrination which tells them they would be doing it for god--and seventeen lovely virgins, let me ask you this, are you alright with these ideas, would defend this ideas?

:)With the resistence to organized religion, it is not seen by me as something which will be ultimately successful, religion in one form or another will be around forever. It is the hope of this resistence movement to take away some of the power of organized religion, because by its nature it is not peace loving, and it is basically an insult as it stands to human intelligence. As I have stated it is not personal, though most would hold the antheist responsiable of respecting the ideas of religion, and I simply do not. These ideas are sacred to many here, they are not however sacred to me, and they have no special status which would behold me to treating them as sacred, if an impersonal attack on the ideas of religion is then taken personally by people here, then that is their problem, these are ideas, and ideas are fair game in a forum about ideas.

Smile

If the righteous did not bring these ideas into a political arena or a forum where it is the nature of that forum to examine ideas there would be no problem. Will I learn to respect these ideas, no there really is not the possiability. You are one of the associates here that I admire about your understandings around philosophy, the above sounds like an objective point of view, yet you side with the majority------come, come over to the darkside. Well, I do expect to be attacked in the line of stating my disapproval of these ideas, perhaps you will see it in yourself to at least to defend my right to do so. boagie

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in a flag, and carrying a cross." StClair Lewis.

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