High School Cage Fights

There may be steps following the growth of an individual, but who is to dictate what these steps are, and, more importantly, when the individual should take them?

Drinking beer? First kiss? Being bullied? Going off to college? :perplexed:

I would have thought we were beyond these cliche "rites of passages". Are we to force people to conform to situations we desire so we may regard them as something 'greater', a "man"? I see many of the examples you gave pertaining to this sense of 'masculinity', the need for a "man" to prove his worth in society. Really, we aren't beyond this? I'm almost stunned. Who are we to judge the value of a person based upon silly, overly-masculine (for the most part), cliched experiences?

Para, there is no objective conclusion, as it is culturally-based. I personally find the whole notion silly, though.

I would agree that some things are generally considered rites of passage, and are rarely refuted as such.

I suppose what I would refute is the notion that certain rites of passage (assuming they are accepted as such) are necessary for a kind of "typical development". Your aforeposted link suggested that boys being raised by a single mother could never become men, I think that's ludicrous bullshit...personally.

Yes the link implies this, and I'm sorry if it offends. bear in mind however that this is a person's personal agenda gleaned from research about rights of passage. The link was to explain about them not that I agree with the person's agenda. There is much concern in traditional cultures, especially Native American ones about the loss of Rights of Passage, within the romaticized cultural ideal in much of Native America his agenda makes sense.

As presented in an earlier post of mine in this thread, I'm trying to establish what makes these "cage fights" any different than sanctioned handing out of condoms in school or other similar things that are equated with events in a young person's life that are "rights of passage" into maturity.

It does not offend, it just does not ring true.

He quotes no research. Neither have you.

There is the prevention and the "fixing". People shouldnt be raised in a way that makes they want to fight each other, but for those who already were, its better to let then I think.

Culture is silly, in most part

I say in most part because there is smartness buried under the stupidity. For example I heard there is a japanese house designing technique wich consists of designing a house as if a dragon was going to inhabit it. Off course dragons dont exist, but their imaginary body is such that any house confortable for a dragon will also be confortable for humans

I dont think there is any smartness hiden under modern rites of passage though.

A few interesting sources

Betty L. Creamer
Journeymen - Mentoring Network Asheville, NC - Boys Rites of Passage.
Rites and Rights of Passage: Seeking a Diasporic Consciousness -- Khan 19 (23): 141 -- Cultural Dynamics
Barth, Frederic (Ed.). (1969). Ethnic Groups and Boundaries: The Social Organization of
Cultural Difference. London: Allen& Unwin.
Douglas, Mary (1966). Purity and Danger. London: Routledge.
Dundes, Alan et al. (1972). The Strategy of Turkish Boys' Verbal Dueling Rhymes. In J.
Durkheim, Emile (1912). The Elementary Forms of the Religious Life.
Eksner, H. Julia (to appear). Ghetto Ideologies, Youth Identity and Stylized Turkish
German. German Turks in Berlin-Kreuzberg. Hamburg: LIT Publishing House.
Haavind, Hanne (2001). Contesting and recognizing historical changes and selves in
development. Los Angeles, CA.
Hall, Stuart, & du Gay, P. (Eds.). (1996). Questions of Cultural Identity. London: Sage
Publ.
Labov, William (1972). Sociolinguistic Patterns. Philadelphia: University of
Pennsylvania Press.
Rogoff, Barbara (2003). The Cultural Nature of Human Development. Oxford: Oxford
University Press.
Turner, Victor (1969). The Ritual Process. Structure and Anti-Structure. Chicago: Aldine
Publishing Company.

What do sanctioned events of a mature nature have to do with "rites of passage"?

One can hand a condom to a teenager and have absolutely no intention of *making* this teenager a "man" via sex (rite of passage); one can simply want the teenager to use protection. Are these cage fights being sanctioned as "rites of passage" for students, or are they simply allowing students to settle disputes in a supervised environment? I got the impression it was the latter, but if you believe "rites of passage" has anything to do with this, do explain.

Aw. ain't nothin wrong with the boys slappin each other around a little. They just tryin to impress the gals anywho.

I agree with you Zeth, but how can you justify getting people to go beyond inherited instincts? (serious question)

A right of passage related to sex and violence.
First to explain a right of passage is not only something that one does to symbolically transition from (boy to man) it is really any activity or action that signifies a transition from one state to another. It traditionally is explained with three stages separation (often a feeling of not belonging to or wanting not to belong to groupX), liminality (limbo or risk), and re-incorporation or re-integration (acceptance of or being accepted into). It is endemic to all social structures with hierarchies or in other words it's in almost everything we do as social beings. It happens during the "promotion" ritual at work transitioning from one position to another.

It happens when a person asks his/her partner to marry. It happens during a disagreement with a superior. All these things have built in social rules/frames/moraes that when breached have real consequences. Some rights of passage are framed biologically, others not so much, but what is common about them all is the structured transition and attitudes and emotions one is expected to feel and the manners in which others involved in that particular cultural group treat the passenger before and after the right of passage is complete.

Sex: Condoms handed out at school, correct; in no way is that forcing a kid to have sex. The claim was not that kids are forced to do anything. The claim was that sanctioning birth control has the same effect as sanctioning violence, in that "if the kids are going to do them anyway, we might as well limit the dangers as much as possible". Yet sex is a perfect example of a right of passage from boy to man. Take the movie The 40 Year Old Virgin for example, the reason why it is so comedic is because that man is not yet a "man". The age of loss of virginity for both sexes in different ways is directly tied socio-culturally with their status in a group. The frequency of sex and or number of sexual partners is as well. Types of sex acts in certain cultures also are right of passage. In a BS&M circle the difference between vanilla and non-vanilla sex acts is the difference between transitioning from out of the group to into the group. It goes on.

Violence: much the same as in sex transitioning from boy to man or from group to group, or hierarchical level of prestige to the next can be wrapped up in willingness to commit or receive violence. Some things are formal like being Jumped Into a gang, others not so much like being a schoolyard tough. If a person has really observed schoolyard fight they will have noticed that there is a well-versed play in which the parties are all but quoting lines. Sports are structured sanctioned violence or violence proxies that serve the right of passage function for young men, but since they are sanctioned and like condoms being handed out in Sex Ed (limiting the danger), they are praised.

In all these examples someone is transitioning from one level of a social/cultural hierarchy to another, in all of them one has the desire to leave or is being forced out of a hierarchical level, often an action that involves personal risk to body, image, or psyche is committed, then that person upon successful commission of that act is integrated into the other level. All of these have specified and pre-agreed upon structures for the parties involved, although often the parties are not aware of their own roles in them. All of them have very real consequences. I am not saying that everything must be a right of passage because life is always transitional; however those things that after having experienced one looks back and says, "hey that choice shaped my life in (X) way" could certainly be considered as such.

I'd try and respond to the above post, but I'm too busy crying because I may not be a true man yet :crying:

Sorry, I forget "real men" should probably not cry...so I'll stop that. [/satire]

Sex is something that almost everyone is going to partake in. Violence is not.

I see no reason why a promotion at work is anymore than a promotion.

The first sexual experience may (or may not) be a rite of passage, but if it is, I see no reason why it is necessarily is a rite of passage from "boy" to "man".

Taking part in some communal ritual involving violence between members of said community may be a rite of passage.

But these cage fights are only similar to such a rite in that they involve violence and that other people watch. These are spontaneous matches between students, not rituals which bring the boy into manhood in the eyes of the larger society. These cage matches are missing some elements of Rite of Passage, don't you think?

I don't understand the question. Inherited instincts?



The two examples you provided are not necessarily considered rites of passage. There may or may not be this transition you speak, and there are no "pre-agreed upon structures" here. It's not like the teachers are Spartans, forcing a known (socially-accepted) code with which every student must follow to move on to the next 'phase' in their development. They aren't throwing kids in steel cages to allow them passage to anything.

After joining this forum I thought, "Hey, this choice really shaped my intellectual life". Would you consider this a rite of passage? I would not. I believe there's a social component to this notion - it's not an independent epiphany. Maybe if everyone in my neighborhood felt it necessary someone make 100 posts on this forum to be dubbed an "intellectual", we could call this rite of passage.

Again, I don't see how your rites of passage theory fits into this particular incident.

I haven't read the link yet to the news, i used to watch boxing horrified at people beating the living daylights outta each other and then flipped to the other extreme of really enjoying watching a good fight, now i think it is a way for people to let off steam but (going off an a tagent here), i've seen refs stand back when they should've in my opinion stepped in and stopped the fight.

Zeth, that the impulse to fight is instinctual and inherited, the procreative and aggressive impulses cannot be taken away. IMHO, we are obligated (if wishing to be part of a community, like a school) to take on a moral 'maturity' as like you said, we should be beyond the need to prove ourselves. (the only thing this supervised aggression does is reward the instinct with sentiment.

But also there is the fact that we cannot just force somebody to mature a little more, which is what I mean by how can we justify anything more than disapproval.

Man what sheltered live people must lead having never been exposed to people who expect that school yard scuffles are an integral part of growing up as a man. I am not claiming nor have I ever claimed that all violence is a right of passage. What I am claiming is that sometimes it is. A right of passage doesn't have to be a ceremony. The same act is not a right of passage for all people. The criteria for 'socially accepted manhood' are different per social class, education level, ethnic group, and religious or non-religious belief system. A 'man' can be a man having never been in a violent or for that matter sexual situation within his cultural milieu.

The structure of schoolyard scuffles however, even when spontaneous has very rigid dialogue and etiquette (see above citation, Turkish Boy's Verbal Dueling). Schoolyard fights are 'ceremonialized', Also considering the specifics of the psychology and the social grouping of said spontaneous fight participants, one might notice that they are not often that spontaneous. There is a definite period of brooding and separation that corresponds with the three steps of the right of passage. Again not every fight will be one, often a pattern of violence will indicate the passage. These sometimes are those times in a kid's life when the parent says "oh its just a phase". It is often whole transitional phases, much like some secret societies require years of passage before the official right is completed.

Again, to quote myself, "what is common about them all is the structured transition and attitudes and emotions one is expected to feel and the manners in which others involved in that particular cultural group treat the passenger before and after the right of passage is complete." Most children who fight habitually, and I'm not talking about being drawn into a fight the child did not want, come from a background where fighting makes one a man, it is expected of them and disappointment is openly expressed by their peers and/or families or expressed passively in manner the child cannot help but notice, if they are not sufficiently violent.

To answer Thomas, Rights of passage are normally not for a large society to recognize anything. One of the reasons we have the legal system defining what is what is that there is too much social diversity in all its forms geographical, religious, socio-economic, racial etc? Rights of passage that are not mass institutionalized and built into the socio-legal structure i.e. licensing, diplomas, etc? are specifically for the micro-society, even down to a single family. A fight localized in a schoolyard has all the hallmarks of a right of passage if the participants treat it as such and the social expectations on the kids are there that require it.

I am not addressing morality here just possible reasons that a principal would sanction cage fighting. The simple fact that he has should cast suspicion on the motive and the expectations he has for the children in his school. If it were not at the bare minimum at least socially acceptable to fight like that, he never would implement an obviously controversial practice like that.

I think Holiday hit the nail on the head with whether or not the sanctioning of these fights is good for society or not although, this does bring up the inevitable morality of the situation.


and P.S. that Turkish Boy's VErbal Dueling is one of the most entertaining academic papers I have ever read.

Gosh: if we call school yard scuffles "rites of passage", then we can call nearly anything a rite of passage. Is failing that algebra test a rite of passage? How about parents divorcing?

Instead of a rite of passage, which tends to carry a great deal of social weight, perhaps the term you are looking for is "typical experiences which occur during the process of growing up".

You're critique of what a rite of passage is doesn't seem to mesh with the meaning of the term.
rite of passage -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Aren't rite of passages reliant on the social construct involved? I mean, technically anything CAN be a rite of passage... the question should be a passage to what? In the case of school yard fights there are young men who feel that getting into a scrap, getting bloodied or someone else bloodied, is a step towards manhood. I would guess this is most common for boys that have fathers with a "macho cowboy" attitude who would either excuse such behavior or promote it. It's more of a question of how societies view the act. Violence is a rite of passage in many cultures, past and present.

With that said, the major problem I see with this high school in Texas is that it was done in relative secrecy because everyone involved were aware that cage fights would not be considered "acceptable". Also, I could be wrong but according to the article it sounds like some kids were forced to fight just because there was a conflict between two students. I feel bad for the kids that did not want to fight but got thrown into a cage with some deluded bully.

What I want to know is what would happen if a high school tried to make cage fighting an actual high school sport? No secrecy, total transparency with announcements, tryouts, teams and everything. Sure, there will be people that think it's wrong... but could it work?

Cage fights as a high school sport? Why not?

Regulated with referees and so forth. UFC style. Wrestling is common, and I imagine some school do boxing. Why not UFC style fighting? A mixed martial arts competition.

Didymos,

As a sport, I am all fine with this idea. To me, it's all about what the relationship is between the bystanders and the people fighting. There is just something wrong with a grudge between two people who probably wouldn't have duked it out in the first place if there wasn't an audience. In a sport, the fact that a grudge is not required as the primary reason for fighting leaves room for how should I put this... more 'productive' means of motivation.

For me, it comes down to the motivation; that of bettering oneself rather than showing superiority over others.