Can you doubt you exist

@nameless,

nameless wrote:

Have to!
Without that doubt spurring inquiry, I would not, perhaps, have found the 'foundational truth' that everything exists.
Existence is context.
Within the appropriate context, everything exists.

One cannot come to the conclusion/belief that one 'exists' (or even use the word) unless one entertains the notion of non-existence, doubt. The term existence implies non-existence, definitionally.

One might never have questioned one's existence, it might be a meaningless concept, and therefore, likewise, there has been no doubt.
With 'certainty' there must be 'doubt', they are the same coin.

What people do naturally, when they lay up excess and consider the future they do not out of doubt, but certain fear... Only when life becomes more certain do people have the luxury of doubt, of considering in the most abstract fashion what is the most real fact to any of us, that we exist... For most of us, we relate, and relate through forms to prove ourselves real today by being able to testify to that fact tomorrow. It is our forms that makes the consideration of forms possible... It is the certainty of life short term that allows for the contemplation of existence... Philosophy is luxury...

I exist, so I think... In the proper order; I relate so I may live, I form, that is: concieve of, and structure, relationships so I can exist; and when existence is assured I can consider my forms as abstractions abstractly to see if they can prove real what they make possible.

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@Jessica phil,

Well I must say, I'm glad I found this thread. I have often doubted my existence but I thought it a rather odd idea and pushed it away. While exploring Buddhism I came across things like 'life is a dream' and 'life is an illusion' etc. And during meditation I experienced such detachment that I was a little afraid. This is going to be quite helpful to me.

1 Reply

@Rose phil,

Rose wrote:

Well I must say, I'm glad I found this thread. I have often doubted my existence but I thought it a rather odd idea and pushed it away. While exploring Buddhism I came across things like 'life is a dream' and 'life is an illusion' etc. And during meditation I experienced such detachment that I was a little afraid. This is going to be quite helpful to me.

People who say that kind of crap need a brain retread... Life is all you got...Hold it in your hand and look at it, and even feel detached if you wish; but NEVER let it go... I will let go of you some day whether you want it to or not..

1 Reply

@Jessica phil,

Existence is nothing but the relation ship betuin two people, one of them is;
Everything that is percieved by you the other is you.
You are everything thats is diffrent to everything you percieve.
So one things is sure you cant percieve everthing in the absolute because in that case you would be nothing since only nothing is diffrent to everything. You have the proove you exist and that you are somthing, that theirs no doubte.
So both you and the other have a relation the other gives you take. The others steals from you make.
You can only give by stealing.

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@Jessica phil,

the other steals from you, you make. Its only by stealing that you can give. You only are only whats good because you only do good an you are what you do, the other can be bad so he will steal from you to give you the goodness of giving. All you percieve is evil to make you good. But betuin two people only the one that who dose the good can live.
the taker, the good one, the one wich is you, can only take what all evilness has to give. Evilness is your freind how ever much you take from him you can only take the what , is where your concience intervien. Because you with your will, you can take less then you tuk from your freind. And that way you will economies. till you will be able to take infinity,and been able to do everything is freedom been able to take everything is what you want. Theire is the storie of how a mans sole becoms infinitly vaste

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@Jessica phil,

I sent it unfinished by mistake

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@Fido,

Fido;36634 wrote:

Only when life becomes more certain do people have the luxury of doubt, of considering in the most abstract fashion what is the most real fact to any of us, that we exist...

'Life' is never 'certain', the level of 'certainty' = the level of 'delusion'.
Second, I have been in circumstances of being directly involved with my (family's) survival; build house from salvage and scrap, grow food, hunt for food, get water from the spring, defend against attack, etc... (Never have i felt so.. 'alive'!) Suffice to say, there were moments to dress the game, hammer the nail, hide the body, whatever, but there were also many moments for meditation and contemplation (anytime is appropritate context).
Perhaps due to that being my nature.
Others have their own unique natures.
Some never venture further than "Do i want more cheese on my nachos?" Others invent teleportation.
No, it is no luxury, it is a burden, but is our nature, and for us, 'meditation/contemplation' is life.
Like I said, if I had never doubted existence, i would not have discovered the complete set of existence; "Everything exists!" Period. All else are subsets. Like a universal law or something, born of doubt and it's subsequent inquiry; like a lotus springing from the mud...

Quote:

For most of us, we relate, and relate through forms to prove ourselves real today by being able to testify to that fact tomorrow. It is our forms that makes the consideration of forms possible... It is the certainty of life short term that allows for the contemplation of existence... Philosophy is luxury...

Sorry, all that 'forms' jargon is meaningless nonsense to me.

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I exist, so I think... In the proper order;

Yup. and, If you are 'thinking', then 'thinking' is existence. No 'order', One!

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I relate so I may live, I form, that is: concieve of, and structure, relationships so I can exist; and when existence is assured I can consider my forms as abstractions abstractly to see if they can prove real what they make possible.

You exist because you exist. You do nothing to exist, being is existing. Simple. No 'why', no 'credit'.

"Your existence is not your doing, but your doing is certainly your existence!" -Book of Fudd (4:20)

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@Fido,

Fido;37199 wrote:

People who say that kind of crap need a brain retread...

Yeah!!! Stoopid Buddhists! Stoopid mystics of all disciplines throughout the millennia, stoopid quantum physics that find, at the foundation of 'materialism', 'information waves', Mindstuff, Consciousness!
Why can't their brains be all smooth and tread free as yours?
"Refutation by ridicule!" Nothing novel, but historically vetted, especially effective when performed en masse (moo).

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@Jessica phil,

Why does everything exist, period?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;46109 wrote:

Why does everything exist, period?

If 'reason' and 'causality' have meaning to you, any 'why' would be for you to 'discover'. I see no 'causality', no 'why'. What is, is. (because it is, if you like)

If you can think of something, it exists in your thoughts (context) if nowhere else. So everything (all that can be thunk, perceived, conceptualized, etc...) exists, within it's context. The Cat in the Hat exists in artwork, literary work, the mind of the readers, etc...
So, everything exists. The very questioning of the existence of 'anything' gives it 'context/existence'. Nothing can be spoken that does not exist. Capisce'?
*__-

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@nameless,

I can't say why everything exists, or if... I am trying very hard to prove my own existence; to touch as many people as possible without getting arrested, and to return to humanity as much or more than I have taken from humanity to have this life... If I thought that was not possible I would count my life a failure and die, but perhaps it would only be a tragedy that we see so much of obligation with every bit of knowledge, but we can give so little back except our appreciation for the understanding...

That reminds me... I came across this teacher from my highschool days, and I can't tell you how often I saw this guy on televison, and said: You *******!!!He was a local coach, a winner... But he was my coach too, and he drove me relentlessly, often insulting, demeaning, and belittleing...I didn't know I had asthma...All I know was that the harder I worked, the less I had to give...And I had this guy for a Algebra teacher, and he was as big a failure at teaching me as I was at learning it...And I know it is logical, and i have learned it since, and forotten it just as quickly...I simply cannot hold it in my head for any length of time...I think with words...

So I walked into a bookstore, and I saw this guy as I walked up to him and I said Smith; You *******...I told him I never learned algebra, but that is a lie, I only forgot I ever learned it, and I told him the way those other coaches and he used to ride me, and that all that time I had asthma, and I called him a ************...And He said: I know the face...What's the name??? And I told him, and he said I looked like I was doing well, and I am, since I worked hard, and was physically active....And I actually retired before he did...But here is the funny thing...It was so theraputic after all those years, close to forty, to tell that guy what I thought of him, that after I did, I wished him well... It was just great to tell him what I thought of that treatment without having to take more than two steps out of my way to do so... I didn't tell him about the time I took acid. and was peaking in his class...Having the walls and chalkboard melting into a puddle on his floor probably did not help my education... I remember looking at the problems on the page in that algebra book and seeing them floating on a page that was deeper than my arm was long...If I could have stood the guy I might have been able to ask for his help... I couldn't bring myself to ask him the time of day...I just wanted to survive that class...And I did, with the lowest possible passing grade...

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@nameless,

nameless wrote:

If 'reason' and 'causality' have meaning to you, any 'why' would be for you to 'discover'. I see no 'causality', no 'why'. What is, is. (because it is, if you like)

If you can think of something, it exists in your thoughts (context) if nowhere else. So everything (all that can be thunk, perceived, conceptualized, etc...) exists, within it's context. The Cat in the Hat exists in artwork, literary work, the mind of the readers, etc...
So, everything exists. The very questioning of the existence of 'anything' gives it 'context/existence'. Nothing can be spoken that does not exist. Capisce'?
*__-

That's not true. I can think of Mickey Mouse, but just because the thought of Mickey Mouse exists (in my mind) that does not mean that Mickey Mouse exists in my mind, does it? You have to distinguish between the thought of Mickey Mouse and Mickey Mouse. The former exists. The latter does not exist.

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@kennethamy,

The difference may be potential, that you can make something of your concepts, but can only make nothing of nothing...
Even when we conceive of infinites, or things like moral realities that cannot be proved, still we have some reality to it... We cannot really conceive of anything unreal like nothing... Nothing as space has a certain reality associated with it... The inner reality is only a reflection of the outer reality...

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy;46570 wrote:

That's not true. I can think of Mickey Mouse, but just because the thought of Mickey Mouse exists (in my mind) that does not mean that Mickey Mouse exists in my mind, does it? You have to distinguish between the thought of Mickey Mouse and Mickey Mouse. The former exists. The latter does not exist.

No, I do not. I presented the complete set. Irrefutable. Everything exists.
If you think of mickey mouse, micky mouse exists, as a thought in your mind. That is what is meant by context.
Everything exists in context.
Context = existence!
If you wish to 'subdivide', that is merely a subset of the complete set of 'everything exists'. It doesn't matter if you won't accept anything's existence that is not colored blue, it still remains a subset of the 'contextual existence of everything'.

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@Jessica phil,

It is actually more appropriate to say that I am, therefore I think. In the sense that Operation actually follows existence. Existence precedes all operations for every action requires an agent capable of such action. And yes, to doubt that you exist is almost impossible in this regard,for it is already is an operation proper of an actual agent that is already existing. I guess if there are other modes of doubting, then it may be possible, for the case i mentioned above, a genuine doubt is impossible.

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@Jessica phil,

It is just as reasonable to say I exist so I crap... Doing is being...Same with thought...Who can show it -is- without doing something with it???

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@Jessica phil,

Nameless, you said:

Quote:

"Everything exists!" Period.

... probably along with many others.

Existence is one of the ideas you stumble over which when you think about hard enough you can conclude that everything is, or isn't. It is something that requires a third party to put it in terms of, and toys with the concept of philosophical scope, or "level of awareness":

It is not true that everything exists. Let's put this on that "scale" as pretty high up. You can further look upward on this scale and think that truly everything exists due to the fact that "everything" just refers to what you know, and if you know of it, it exists.

Things which you cannot think of do not exist. For example right now I am not in China, and lets presume that nobody in China knows me or has ever heard of me nor my name. To them, I do not exist. In other words, I do not exist in terms of those other people. There are millions of people in China, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect someone over there is debating over philosophy and creates a hypothetical person whose name is "Luthor". They could think both, he exists or he does not exist.

This idea of scope is delicate because at the top of this "scale", or whatever you will call it, anything is possible. Everyone has some kind of position on this scale. In order to remain some sort of sanity, and keep arguments valid and not just running all over the place with no meaning, it is best to keep a low philosophical scope. On the reverse side, a person could be considered delusional if they truly understand it.
You can temporarily think and speak on levels below yourself, but not above yourself.
I could go on and on and I understand if I did not adequately describe this scope I am speaking of, but basically, anything is possible.

(that is a statement with extremely high scope, and means that anything could also not be possible, and if "anything is possible" is one of those statements then, none of this is true and scope at this level is not meaningful, even though it could be truthful, or it is just anything else you want do describe it)

So back to existence, it just depends on what position you are on that scale.

1 Reply

@Fido,

One cannot doubt where one cannot at the same time speak of knowledge.

Suppose S knows P iff
(1) P is true
(2) S believes P
(3) S has justification for P

Further suppose P is "I do not exist." Could you believe that you do not exist? What kind of conditions must be met in order to be said to believe at all? Does the capacity to believe anything at all presuppose existence? To have justification, does that presuppose existence?

But if you could doubt that you exist, you must know at least what it would be like for you not to exist. But you do exist. So what are you doubting?

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions and the logical criteria for doubt? I've listed a popular conception of knowledge, where its necessary and sufficient conditions are covered by (1)-(3). Do the same for doubt. Is "doubt" an aspect of knowledge?

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@Jessica phil,

Jessica wrote:

Can we doubt we exist?

Yes, but then we need to redefine the word 'exist,' or find another name for what we're doing. If you mean in absolute terms, ala Descartes, then that's anonther question. What do you mean by 'we?'

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@Luthor phil,

Luthor;48279 wrote:

Nameless, you said: Everything exists.

... probably along with many others.

Not probably. That is the, as I have stated, 'complete set'. Everything exists. Every other definition of existence is a 'subset'. Understand?

Quote:

Existence is one of the ideas you stumble over which when you think about hard enough you can conclude that everything is, or isn't. It is something that requires a third party to put it in terms of, and toys with the concept of philosophical scope, or "level of awareness":

Existence is context, if thats what you mean by a 'third party'. Has nothing to do with philosophy or 'levels of awareness'. If you are aware of it, it exists.

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It is not true that everything exists.

Yes, it is true. I have shown the truth of the statement. You cannot refute it.

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Let's put this on that "scale" as pretty high up.

No, actually that is the complete set. There is no more.

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You can further look upward on this scale and think that truly everything exists due to the fact that "everything" just refers to what you know, and if you know of it, it exists.

There is no "upward" from "everything exists in contect", thats it. Period.

Quote:

Things which you cannot think of do not exist.

What does this mean? 'Things' that no one is aware of doesnt exist? There are no such things to exist! Every

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thing

exists.

Quote:

For example right now I am not in China, and lets presume that nobody in China knows me or has ever heard of me nor my name. To them, I do not exist. In other words, I do not exist in terms of those other people. There are millions of people in China, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect someone over there is debating over philosophy and creates a hypothetical person whose name is "Luthor". They could think both, he exists or he does not exist.

You exist because/as someone's awareness of you. Your own, for instance. Only one person in the universe need 'see' something, to give it existence.

Quote:

This idea of scope is delicate because at the top of this "scale", or whatever you will call it, anything is possible. Everyone has some kind of position on this scale. In order to remain some sort of sanity, and keep arguments valid and not just running all over the place with no meaning, it is best to keep a low philosophical scope. On the reverse side, a person could be considered delusional if they truly understand it.
You can temporarily think and speak on levels below yourself, but not above yourself.
I could go on and on and I understand if I did not adequately describe this scope I am speaking of, but basically, anything is possible.

None of this has any impact or bearing on the truth that everything exists, in context, is the complete set. All else are subsets.

Quote:

(that is a statement with extremely high scope, and means that anything could also not be possible, and if "anything is possible" is one of those statements then, none of this is true and scope at this level is not meaningful, even though it could be truthful, or it is just anything else you want do describe it)

All that can possibly exist, exists. Always is; a done deal. Everything exists!

Quote:

So back to existence, it just depends on what position you are on that scale.

Sorry, you aren't making much sense to me (and probably not to yourself either) and you have not refuted the completeness of the truth that "everything exists". You cannot provide any evidence of anything that does not exist, and so my offered complete set still stands tall. When you can offer something that does not exist, I will recant and claim error. Until then, which will be never, the complete 'set' will remain that;
"Everything exists.
Existence is context.
Everything exists in context."
Period.
Sorry if you don't like it. I told you how you can refute it, if you ever can. All you'll be able to do is find 'subsets' of which there are many. I found the complete 'set'.

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