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Can you doubt you exist

 
 
vajrasattva
 
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Reply Mon 7 Apr, 2008 06:02 am
@Jessica phil,
the doubt, i believe comes from the fact that the mental state is inconsistent from day to day, and synchronicity, is, for lack of a better word, a trippy experience. as are many things that occur on the mystic plane. and i believe that this is true because ones consciousness devolves into the essence of reality, creating an experience that is somewhat dream like in that reality seems to center on the individual.
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2008 05:10 pm
@Jessica phil,
If we can have faith in the non-visible external, why can't we have non-faith in the visible internal?
Fido
 
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Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2008 10:26 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
If we can have faith in the non-visible external, why can't we have non-faith in the visible internal?

How much space has non-faith taken only to leave the faithless shakin?
Quatl
 
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Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 04:18 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
How much space has non-faith taken only to leave the faithless shakin?

Three cubic meters Wink
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boagie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 09:32 am
@Jessica phil,
Jessica wrote:
Can we doubt we exist?


Jessica,Smile

:)Yes I think we can, though it would be more meaningful if we knew what existence was.
kennethamy
 
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Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 10:03 am
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Jessica,Smile

:)Yes I think we can, though it would be more meaningful if we knew what existence was.


Well, we certainly know this much: that unless we exist, we cannot do anything, so we certainly cannot doubt anything, and therefore, we cannot doubt we exist unless we already exist in the first place. So doubting I exist seems to be a self-refuting exercise, since the very attempt to doubt that I exist shows I exist.
boagie
 
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Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 10:24 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
Well, we certainly know this much: that unless we exist, we cannot do anything, so we certainly cannot doubt anything, and therefore, we cannot doubt we exist unless we already exist in the first place. So doubting I exist seems to be a self-refuting exercise, since the very attempt to doubt that I exist shows I exist.


kennethamy,

Yes, your logic seems to hold. It is a grand mystery however, just what existence is, both the existence of the world and the existence of being in the world, it is the same mystery.
0 Replies
 
Aristoddler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 12:13 pm
@Jessica phil,
The only thing i know for sure is that I exist.
What I have difficulty proving is that the rest of you do.


I know that I think.
I can't get behind your eyes to say the same thing.

I can discover the world around me with my five senses.
I cannot smell with your nose, see with your eyes, or taste with your tongue...therefore I cannot prove that you can smell a flower, see its colour or taste its nectar.

Therefore I can only prove that the rose exists in my world, and not yours.
0 Replies
 
vajrasattva
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 12:56 pm
@Jessica phil,
The essence of truth is faith in reality and what it presents before you
boagie
 
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Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 01:44 pm
@vajrasattva,
vajrasattva wrote:
The essence of truth is faith in reality and what it presents before you


vajrasattva,Smile

:)That is right on the money I would say, for truth does not belong to the object, nor does it belong to the subject as a property, but rather truth is the evaluation of the relationship between subject and object. The object is hot, according to/ or relative to, this biological subject. This is not faith, this is experience.
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vajrasattva
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 05:16 pm
@Jessica phil,
Thank you for both posts of praise.
Fido
 
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Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 10:51 pm
@vajrasattva,
vajrasattva wrote:
Thank you for both posts of praise.

I didn't praise you, but I should. Truth is a form of relationship, and I say it differently, but pretty much agree with your thought.
0 Replies
 
Holiday20310401
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:00 pm
@Jessica phil,
Existence is the contrusion of reality with actuality right? I think I must of read that somewhere from this forum though. Can you doubt reality? No ofcourse not, we rely on it for emotion, logic and intellect. The construsion of what existence creates (reality/actuality) is based on the ability to perceive. Is existing not the ability to perceive? I suppose if one were to doubt their own existence that would imply that they had no potential to reality which further implies amoralism of actions and events, suggesting insanity. We don't have to look at Descartes, it's just common sense.
Sure having self doubt is important, I see it as an opposing force to hypocrisy, but the entirety of one's self being doubted is absurd when all the parts that make it up show potential and therefore exist.
Relating to the universe, the entirety of it is questionable of existence but only because it is unknown the full actuality of it's inner parts.
boagie
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:17 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Existence is the contrusion of reality with actuality right? I think I must of read that somewhere from this forum though. Can you doubt reality? No ofcourse not, we rely on it for emotion, logic and intellect. The construsion of what existence creates (reality/actuality) is based on the ability to perceive. Is existing not the ability to perceive? I suppose if one were to doubt their own existence that would imply that they had no potential to reality which further implies amoralism of actions and events, suggesting insanity. We don't have to look at Descartes, it's just common sense.
Sure having self doubt is important, I see it as an opposing force to hypocrisy, but the entirety of one's self being doubted is absurd when all the parts that make it up show potential and therefore exist.
Relating to the universe, the entirety of it is questionable of existence but only because it is unknown the full actuality of it's inner parts.



:)You are experience, if it could be said that you experience nothing, then, you are not. Interesting is it not, experience has no identity, it just is, and you are what you experience.
Holiday20310401
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:26 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
:)You are experience, if it could be said that you experience nothing, then, you are not. Interesting is it not, experience has no identity, it just is, and you are what you experience.

Thanks boagie, I never thought of it that way. But are you saying that you do not exist if you don't experience anything? Are you saying that actuality has not potential, or am I making some assumption that is wrong?
Although I guess if there is no life then nothing exists right?
I don't understand. If you r what u experience then could it be said that experience causes identity.
Oh wait.. I see whats going on. I made the mistake when I only specified existence in a living sense only?:confused:
Existence is what gives potential and potential is what allows for experience?
Fido
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 10:53 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Thanks boagie, I never thought of it that way. But are you saying that you do not exist if you don't experience anything? Are you saying that actuality has not potential, or am I making some assumption that is wrong?
Although I guess if there is no life then nothing exists right?
I don't understand. If you r what u experience then could it be said that experience causes identity.
Oh wait.. I see whats going on. I made the mistake when I only specified existence in a living sense only?:confused:
Existence is what gives potential and potential is what allows for experience?

I'll say it: If I don't live then no one exists. This thread has been going on some time, but at the risk of repeating myself let me say that what we think of as existing, exists as matter that is very much unaffected by time. We live, and life is the particular form our existence takes. Yet, since humanity is, in one sense at least, immortal, it exists more or less unchanged in time, while we only live and die.
boagie
 
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Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 11:01 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Thanks boagie, I never thought of it that way. But are you saying that you do not exist if you don't experience anything? Are you saying that actuality has not potential, or am I making some assumption that is wrong?
Although I guess if there is no life then nothing exists right?
I don't understand. If you r what u experience then could it be said that experience causes identity.
Oh wait.. I see whats going on. I made the mistake when I only specified existence in a living sense only?:confused:
Existence is what gives potential and potential is what allows for experience?


Holiday:)

:)Life's a holiday on primrose lane, just kidding!! Glad to have you with us Holiday, a first and most interesting post, he is off and running. Well yes I do say it is a very good chance if you experience nothing, that you are dead. Actually in experiments involving sensory deprivation, when the subject is cut off from all stimulus, or it is taken down to a minimal and stretched over a lengthly period, the subject begins to self-destruct. It is my opinion that the concept of self should be greatly extended to include the concept of the physical world, the two are inseparable.

:)Actuality has limitations imposed by its forms, chaos is without form and so, is of greater potental. Experience does cause identity, but, it is experience of a given context which gives identity, the vitality of the individual is a given by nature, and in someways, may qualify or limit said life force's journey through its defining context. To be manifest, is to have taken on form, form itself is limitation in being, again, chaos is pure potential, because it is without form.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 11:01 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
I'll say it: If I don't live then no one exists. This thread has been going on some time, but at the risk of repeating myself let me say that what we think of as existing, exists as matter that is very much unaffected by time. We live, and life is the particular form our existence takes. Yet, since humanity is, in one sense at least, immortal, it exists more or less unchanged in time, while we only live and die.

Yes and I completely advocate that. But still, if you do not live then you would still have an effect upon reality and other life, unless all life is wiped out to perceive the influence right?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 11:12 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Yes and I completely advocate that. But still, if you do not live then you would still have an effect upon reality and other life, unless all life is wiped out to perceive the influence right?

Well the way I heard it Schopenhaur said that when I die the world will die with me. ,Recently some gun man shot up a mall, and he said: now I'll be famous. Living people can be famous; but dead people are just dead. We cannot expect the dead to find meaning as we do in what living people do. Meaning is a far better expression than being, because if I were dead the world might still have being, but no meaning to me because meaning is a thing of life to such an extent that we give much meaning to stuff that has no actual being. Life is meaning, and as long as you live you can find meaning.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2008 11:13 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Holiday:)

:)Life's a holiday on primrose lane, just kidding!!

:)Actuality has limitations imposed by its forms, chaos is without form and so, is of greater potental. Experience does cause identity, but, it is experience of a given context which gives identity, the vitality of the individual is a given by nature, and in someways, may qualify or limit said life force's journey through its defining context. To be manifest, is to have taken on form, form itself is limitation in being, again, chaos is pure potential, because it is without form.

So you are speaking of experience as sort of 'self potential', potential that from the outside world would provide purpose to the cause of the individual who is in existence?; that it is irrelevant that experience's potential is affecting the abiotic.:confused:
Also, whats the allusion primrose lane?Surprised
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