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@Patty phil,

Patty wrote:

Because I believe that if God is a matter, then he is limited. The only argument to make God unlimited is to make God and the Universe as having the same identity. In that sense, There would be truly no God if everything is God.

Patty,

I tend to agree with your logic with regard to the 'everything is God' ideas that are out there. As a matter of fact some of that teaching is some of the oldest in our history and predates Christianity by a long long shot.

However I do not agree with your attempt to discern whether or not this origin of creation is somehow limited or unlimited. How can we know one way or the other anything about this force?

All we know is that there is something responsible for the garden. Everything else is pure conjecture.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Patty

Quote:

How can you say the the universe is self aware when you know you can think better than a rock? why are there degrees on intellectuality if that were the case?

I never said that "READ WHAT I SAID AND THEN COMMENT"

Quote:

Didymos Thomas

God cannot be a being because a being can be conceived as existing and not existing. As Anselm argues, the question "Does God exist?" is nonsensical: it is not germane to the notion of God.

Now that is a sensible comment, God simply "IS"

To try and define infinitity/ God is beyond the grasp of human interlect and to me is silly

Do I believe in reincarnation , "NO I DO NOT"

0 Replies

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Didymos,

We are once again getting into a matter of semantics.

Being, God, spirit soul, Creator.

Why do we all insist on trying to draw a face on the balloon?

noun
Inflected Form(s): plural: the quality of being infinite b: unlimited extent of time, space, or quantity : boundlessness

2: an indefinitely great number or amount <an infinity of stars>

3 a: the limit of the value of a function or variable when it tends to become numerically larger than any preassigned finite number b: a part of a geometric magnitude that lies beyond any part whose distance from a given reference position is finite <do parallel lines ever meet if they extend to infinity> c: a transfinite number (as aleph-null)

4: a distance so great that the rays of light from a point source at that distance may be regarded as parallel

I defined infinity. :poke-eye:

1 Reply

@Icon,

Icon

Quote:

noun
Inflected Form(s): plural

Thank you for the unsolicited lesson in semantics, but anyone would know what I meant.

Oh I see I made a key stroke error "infinitity" it should have been infinity

You cannot pluralise infinity (Inflected Form(s): plural

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Icon

Thank you for the unsolicited lesson in semantics, but anyone would know what I meant.

Oh I see I made a key stroke error "infinitity" it should have been infinity

You cannot pluralise infinity (Inflected Form(s): plural

I see inifinity a bit differently but the same concept. I see inifinity in every object. Take a coin for example (since that happens to be the closest object to me. Now zoom in to the metal, now to the atoms, then the particles, then beyond that, then keep going. The coin may only be a single coin but it possesses infinity. As does every object.

Still, as far as reincarnation goes, I do not believe that we can come back to life as something else. When we die, we are done. Gone. It is the end of our cycle. This is what my intuition tells me so if I have had previous lives (which some of my more spiritual friends agree that I have) then they are completely lost to me which renders them inconsequential in my opinion. I see reincarnation as a daily event because, to assume that you will come back to try again is to admit that you have a second or third chance. I think it is more important, especially with the teachings of reincarnation, to take every moment as a new chance to get it right.

0 Replies

@Icon,

Icon,

I am assuming that this is the question you are referring to that I missed. If not please let me know. I think I addressed it with a quick response saying that most people undertsand the difference between an oaf and a wise man.

YOUR QUOTE
"So tell me, are you wise? If you say yes then you cannot be. If you say no then you must not be. Does your wisdom extend to the point of answering this simple question?...
I am 24 years old and have attained much wisdom in my short time here. If I had to live more than one life then I would have had this wisdom in my youth but I can tell you that I did not. It has come with the price of a broken body, a broken mind and many a broken heart. Still, if a wise man were to have multiple lives, he would not remember them and thus his wisdom would be lost for wisdom comes from lessons learned and lessons learned come from experience and experience comes from memory.UNQUOTE

Let me try to answer in a little more detail seeing as how you are taking me seriously.

First of all I can call myself wise if I compare myself to what I see around me that I know to be unwise in comparison.

Secondly, a person can certainly gain wisdom in one lifetime as you have poited out. I did not say differently. What I said was that vast wisdom cannot be accomplished in one lifetime and passed on into another simply through tutelage.

This is evident in the fact that there are wise men in primitive environment that have no means of education except that of storytelling. Their wisdom should die with them but it does not and their knowledge and wisdom is carried on. How is that possible?

Also the gap between the oaf and the wise man is far too great to be spanned in one lifetime of learning.

My point is that if one considers the lack of wisdom seen in the oaf, and compares it to the great difference of the wisdom of the wise man, one can see that there is no way that the oaf could ever achieve such wisdom in one lifetime.

These instinctive skills and talents that you are arguing, like climate observation instincts, are not conducive to what we are talking about here.

I am sure there are many oafs that can tell me when there is rain approaching, but that does not mean they should be ranked with the likes of Edison or Einstein does it.

I think that the wisdom one gains in a lifetime is certainly somehow contained in their life force and continued on through reincarnation as that life force begins anew ion another form. the new incarnation would be starting with a clean slate so to speak, but would have subconscious access to the stored wisdom of its predecessors, and be therefore able to apply logic and reason in an improved way and therefore able to attain knowledge easier and learn at an increase level.

This answers the question of why some people just seem to be more intelligent than others. There is no difference in physiological biology whatsoever in most cases where retardation is not a factor, and yet there is a vast difference somehow in learning aptitude.

2 Replies

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Icon,

I am assuming that this is the question you are referring to that I missed. If not please let me know. I think I addressed it with a quick response saying that most people undertsand the difference between an oaf and a wise man.

....

Actually I asked the difference between an oaf and a wise man.

But in response to the post above... The difference between someone with great knowledge and someone with limited knowledge or even the ability of one person to learn more quickly than someone else all depends on what they are trying to learn. You mention Einstein as a wise man... he couldn't learn how to tie his shoes... Even an oaf can do that. Is it not a bit arrogant to assume yourself wise? Isn't arrogance detrimental to your cause through reincarnation? How do you hope to attain enlightenment if you are stuck in this assumption of oafs and wisdom?

I am a watcher. I look, I listen, I learn. An "oaf" can teach you a great many things if you sit and watch them. As a matter of fact, it was an "oaf" who first taught me a lesson in humility. Perhaps it is possible that you are the oaf since you seem to categorize people of lesser intelligence as little more than useless. Have you ever taken the time to try to understand them or have you always held wisdom on a pedestal? In every action, event, even change in the weather, there is a lesson to be learned. Have you been paying attention?

As far as your theory on intelligent people having many lives to draw information from subconsciously...

Socrates: A wise man for sure.

Socrates on knowledge: Mankind knows all things. We do not learn, we simply remember. All the knowledge of the universe is contained within us. Some people may just be more adept to understanding it. No need for mulitple lives, we possess everything we need in this one. :a-ok:

A wise man knows he knows nothing. Ironic isn't it?

0 Replies

@Pathfinder,

I think if you have blue eyes and blonde hair you are better than those with brown eyes..I dont think its got anything to do with nurture or eduction..I think im just better than you..All of us with blue eyes have been here before we have been reincarnated hundreds of times..I bet you are all amazed at my intelligence on this subject.

1 Reply

@xris,

Icon

Quote:

I see inifinity a bit differently but the same concept. I see inifinity in every object. Take a coin for example (since that happens to be the closest object to me. Now zoom in to the metal, now to the atoms, then the particles, then beyond that, then keep going. The coin may only be a single coin but it possesses infinity. As does every object

I know what you mean, where does smallness/micro end or where does the macro bigness end, you can divide downward forever, sort of splitting a quark in a half quake

And our universe might just be a quantum particle in a greater universe and that greater universe a quantum particle of a greater universe infinitely upward infinitely downward :perplexed:

Quote:

I am a watcher. I look, I listen, I learn. An "oaf" can teach you a great many things if you sit and watch them. As a matter of fact, it was an "oaf" who first taught me a lesson in humility. Perhaps it is possible that you are the oaf since you seem to categorize people of lesser intelligence as little more than useless. Have you ever taken the time to try to understand them or have you always held wisdom on a pedestal? In every action, event, even change in the weather, there is a lesson to be learned. Have you been paying attention?

:bigsmile:

Me too Icon in fact I often use as my avatar "The Listener", sometimes I Change that to "The Thinker"

And then I am ready to change my avatar momentarily to "The Speaker"

So the secret of wisdom is to "LISTEN" then "THINK" and only then "TALK" Smile

XRIS

Quote:

I think if you have blue eyes and blonde hair you are better than those with brown eyes..I dont think its got anything to do with nurture or eduction..I think im just better than you..All of us with blue eyes have been here before we have been reincarnated hundreds of times..I bet you are all amazed at my intelligence on this subject.

How amazingly profound, kits muge mie calk zsatt zenn all zziss zknowzz:bigsmile:

Just kidding or is tsuJ ginddik :perplexed:

Pathfinder

Quote:

Also the gap between the oaf and the wise man is far too great to be spanned in one lifetime of learning.

Really how do yo know this Alexander the Great conquered most of the known world before the age of twenty nine and he would have conquered more than that if he did not die of malaria

I was never an oaf I have always been wise, even as a toddler but for a time I was a muscle bound bodybuilder

0 Replies

@Dustin phil,

One should not take such offense to the terminology used to attempt to define the difference between the oaf and the wise man.

In order to discuss these differences one must use terminology in the same way that one must also use a word to define god in order to discuss it.

I use the word oaf because it is understood what the word implies, distinguishing it from the definition of retarded so we can see that we are not discussing a disability.

But I can see that many here are going to take offense to this discussion instead of listening to the intent. How can you be watchers and listeners when you will not do either?

I have not said, or intended to demean the oaf, by suggesting they are useless and have nothing to offer. I have also not said that a wise man cannot have learning problems. If you can find where I said anything derogatory in this discussion than please show us all or continue the discussion by actually watching and listening, instead of becoming unnecessarily defensive, or personally offensive.

What we are talking about here is the difference between the end result of being enlightened enough to be wise, and the other end of having no social or intellectual understanding at all and being an oaf. It is a wide gap.

Now instead of being protective of the feelings of any oaf that may be reading this, please feel free to use another word to represent what you mean by oaf wherever I use the word.

Icon,

I answered your question by stating that ,"First of all I can call myself wise if I compare myself to what I see around me that I know to be unwise in comparison." For instance, if i were to walk down a path with a man who steps into every pile of dog crap when he could easily step around them like I do, than I would consider myself wiser than such a person.

Do you have an argument for that?

Xris,

This has nothing to do with bigotry. Are you saying that there is no intellectual difference between an oaf and a wise man? I do not think it necessary to define each. I would have assumed being on a philosophy forum that most members here would understand the difference without having it laid out for them. Obviously I was wrong.

To Others,

It disturbs me to see how quickly one turns on their friends without any diplomacy whatsoever!

To All,

Let me explain in a little more detail.

We are not talking about social skills, or hand skills. We are not talking about retardation and we are not talking about absent mindedness, although each of you has foolishly attempted to make it so without reason.

The wise man we are speaking of is that person in the village that everyone comes to for advice because their wisdom is recognized and acknowledge by the villagers as exceeding their own and is always beneficial to others. We are talking about that person who will ponder the existence of the creation around him while most of his fellowmen do not bother themselves with such unfruitful wasting of time and do not like to have their heads in the clouds. We are talking about those who through great discerning of thought and gathering of understanding have broadened their scope of intellectual ability and knowledge in ways that those who do not cannot comprehend.

The oaf that I speak of is not an idiot but one who does not concern himself with the deeper and more intimate aspects of life and is therefore not as inciteful about the dynamics of the intricate details of life, and concern themselves with only the day to day struggles of survival. The oaf is your everyday ordinary person that goes about their business without any thought for philosophical matters. Most have as much as aptitude to become wiser when they do seek after such things as they gain in the experience of life, but there is most definitely a very wide gap between those that are far ahead of them in that aspect.

So what I am hearing from some of you here is that you do not consider yourselves any wiser than an oaf, and that you are also offended by anyone who would consider themselves wiser than an oaf. This is very interesting to me, as I know many people that would not be able to take part intellectually in any of the discussions on this board. I know many people who could care less about Socrates and his views on reincarnation. I know people who are very wise about the ways of the world who cannot write or read. And I know many bright people who could have great discussions with me on the mundane matters of everyday life, but would be totally helpless and awkward to discuss matters of deeper philosophical content.

It intrigues me greatly that some of you here cannot make that dissection of society, and have not observed it in your own surroundings.

I will certainly like to hear more. Please continue.

1 Reply

@Dustin phil,

To Alan,

Please explain "I was never an oaf I have always been wise, even as a toddler but for a time I was a muscle bound bodybuilder."

And are you implying that wisdom is being able to conquer the world through brute force? You seemed to be a more spiritual man in my first impressions. I can honestly say that I do not know any wise infants. But if that is an attempt to corner me on what wisdom an infant may have stored from a previous incarnation, that would be a nice try. I must also assume that you think that intelligence is somehow diminished in muscle tissue, either that or this was a vain attempt similar to that of Xris'.

Et tu, Brute?

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

To Alan,

Please explain "I was never an oaf I have always been wise, even as a toddler but for a time I was a muscle bound bodybuilder."

And are you implying that wisdom is being able to conquer the world through brute force? You seemed to be a more spiritual man in my first impressions. I can honestly say that I do not know any wise infants. But if that is an attempt to corner me on what wisdom an infant may have stored from a previous incarnation, that would be a nice try. I must also assume that you think that intelligence is somehow diminished in muscle tissue, either that or this was a vain attempt similar to that of Xris'.

Et tu, Brute?

Ive come across so many people who because of their privileged education assume that for some mysterious reason they are better than the oaf who sweeps his street.What you are proposing is no different than hitlers aryan master race attitude.I never had a good education, i did not study philosophy does that make me an oaf or am i an old soul with greater wisdom than you?If i draw a picture of a horse for my granddaughter and her attempt looks like a pig can i say she is in some way inferior to me? Sorry your attitude needs refining.

0 Replies

@Dustin phil,

Sorry Xris,

I am afraid we are on completely different pages my friend. You are deliberately putting words in my mouth and twisting their meanings. I will gracefully bow out of this discussion with you if you don't mind, as well as any further ones.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Sorry Xris,

I am afraid we are on completely different pages my friend. You are deliberately putting words in my mouth and twisting their meanings. I will gracefully bow out of this discussion with you if you don't mind, as well as any further ones.

That will be fine with me friend as your undefended views stand as witness.

1 Reply

@xris,

XRIS

Removed by Alan due to misuderstanding :perplexed: :bigsmile:

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

XRIS

The quote above is offensive to me!! :not-OK: :thats-enough:

You have one really unpleasant attitude which at your age you should shrug off really man!

You know absolutely nothing about me other than my posts in this forum and yet you have the Gaul to define my attitude

The bodybuilding I referred to was long ago in fact more than 45 years and I have long advanced beyond that concept of being

I have four beautiful daughters (on mentally challenged) and ten grandchilden and they all think I am a lovable old grizzled critter that does not need refining and like me just the way I am

Now about my retarded loving daughter of forty years old, who I have loved and wept about and struggled with over many years an now in my twilight years my wife and I must still look after her in our home, "think before you utter nonsense" She is my most precious jewl, so think before you respond

It seems you lack completely any sense of humor which I have tried in vain to extract from your concrete exterior. I give up :perplexed:

I am at a loss to understand how you think my post was directed at you as well as pathfinder..I find pathfinders attitude deplorable not yours...:perplexed:

1 Reply

@xris,

XRIS

removed by Alan

Sorry XRIS

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Pathfinder

Removed by Alan

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Pathfinder

We are on the same side of the fence and all your posts make real sense to me, so there is really just a small misunderstanding

The mention of my Bodybuilder was a weak attempt at humor and I just said this because I have moved beyond the physical into the spiritual during my protracted life

You are a pleasant fellow, unlike our enemy in debate and I do not want to lose you as a forum friend.

We have much more in common than that we differ :bigsmile:

I seemed to have wisdom way beyond my years even from the time I was a small child, old soul if you get it!

Oh i get it now you are of the same opinion,you are born with this superiority thing just like Pathfinder. Well i do have the same opion of you as i do pathfinder..I will leave you both to your inbuilt superiority complex.I will stand up against this proposal any time it rears its ugly head..

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@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Icon,

I answered your question by stating that ,"First of all I can call myself wise if I compare myself to what I see around me that I know to be unwise in comparison." For instance, if i were to walk down a path with a man who steps into every pile of dog crap when he could easily step around them like I do, than I would consider myself wiser than such a person.

Do you have an argument for that?

Why is he stepping in Dog Crap? If you don't know then you don't have the ability to accurately call yourself wise or him an oaf.

I am not getting defensive. I am merely pointing out that there are many different types of wisdom and that you have no right to define what is wise and what is not. You seem to be the one getting defensive.

Your whole argument is based off of the assumption that you know what is wise and what is not. If this is true then surely you must be a heavenly sage, taoist immortal, or great figure of history because even those who we have seen prove themselves the wisest do not make the claim of knowing what it is to be wise. On the contrary, such concepts based in ego are usually rejected by the wise in order to concentrate on wisdom.

Back to Socrates (as he is the perfect example in this situation due to his historical youth): Socrates was informed that he was the wisest of all men. He subsequently took on a quest to speak to every wise man that he could only to find them not so wise. he did this because he did not consider himself wise and still did not to the day of his death.

So tell me, great and venerable immortal, what is widom and how doth one attain such on this earthly plane? *kowtow*

0 Replies

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