how can reincationation not be real?
E=MC2
mass has energy equivalence
matter is made of mass
you are made of matter
what am i missing?
mass has energy equivalence.. mass is energy
you exist wave form and particle form
when your partical form "dies" only to get its particals redistributed through the earth to give energy to other things
the other part of you, the infinite eternal wave part, continues to exist in energy form
it doesnt have eyes or ears or anything like that.. those are particles and exist on a finite level
but it returns to the infinite mix of energy and from that point on we cannot describe what happens physically
but just because there are more people now than before doesnt mean reincarnation doesnt exist, because we are dealing with an infinite continuum of energythe absolute can split itself up as many times as it wishes
you cannot prove these things reasonably though
the act of believing if something is true or not has nothing to do with anything but intuition,
there is no 1 single realm of truth.. well there is.. but no human brain can be capable of understanding because being human means being seporated.. and the truth is basically everyones reality and we are all split up so thats impossable to concieve with a human brain
no matter how much pragmatical logic you think you need to find proof in your reality.. your still comparing evidence towards your intuition in order to change it.. and intuition is not reasonable at all..
we are all left brained and right brained
its wise to gain finite knowledge
but dont forget infinite knowledge either

I read a post from another thread that goes as:

The emboldened part above seems to be a very different variation from what I had in mind and seems to make some sense through a particle or matter standpoint. However, is there anyone who believes that a soul can come back in a new body? If so, why would someone come back like this? Would someone come back more than once? What purpose does it ultimately serve?

I've been exposed to topics of reincarnation, karma and other "spiritual" stuff for a long time now (several people in the household keep busy with it). I used to believe it for a long time, but i decided to turn away from all spiritual stuff because nothing was certain, and everything was "just the way it was, and don't think about it!" which really bothered me. I guess the "it cannot be proven, just believe it" part drove me away from it. Nevertheless i still learned some (for me) valuable lessons from it.

I think karma and reincarnation are tightly bound together (if they indeed exist) for it is simple logic that if you've done bad things to people you will return in your next live as someone who befalls such evil as you casted upon other people. (As is has been explained by me by so many different people)

My philosophical mind thinks of this as a never ending circle since even if the feud between two "souls" has been solved, there are still others hurt by it. which makes it a never ending circle.

So it's either that this systems explanation has been wrong (or partly incorrect) or the whole system has a flaw (which i doubt, because if you look (and think about it) at a human body you will see so much complex mind dazzling work. (Taken in the event God exists and indeed created everything, which I doubt).

I think reincarnation can never be explained using our logic. I've been thinking about it a few weeks back and i think that if reincarnation can be proven we can also be a step closer to discovering God cannot exist, or even multiple energies like Karma and reincarnation are the driving power between existence, and because of our "simple" minds back in time we gave a name (and personification) to this bundle of powers, and we've been stuck with it for generations and generations.

If anyone wants my answer to be expanded with more facts, depth and (safe) assumption just say so, I'll be happy to write a (short) story of my point of view.

In Christian-reincarnation hybrids (some "new age" stuff is in this category) this place may be heaven, while in Buddhism inspired systems it is generally a joining of one's soul with a godlike unity (there are variations here too))

These beliefs only work at all if you abandon any importance in the universe we see before us. Seeking to reconcile any of this with physics is to miss the point I think.

I would like to believe in reincarnation, but I don't. I think it's a much more interesting and appealing option than the other choices (heaven/hell, true death etc); however I don't think that just because I wish it, that things become so.

Over the course of my life I've come to the conclusion, gradually and grudgingly, that there is no external force, being or spiritual essence. The search through many different religions has for me in the end been unfruitful, though at times emotionally enjoyable in a masturbatory sense for a time.

Many folks seem to eventually get to something they like though, and I've heard claims of enlightenment from many over the years. On the rare occasions when I've had access to deeply question these folks, I have been unable to extract from them a similar sensation for myself. At least, not for very long.

Of course they inevitably frown "wisely" and say something condescending at that point, and I know that it's once again time for me to move on. Maybe I'm too picky, or perhaps as Buddha said, my mistake is one of believing in my own identity.

I don't feel peace in the silence of meditation though, nor happiness in the disassociation of my will, perhaps we each must ultimately find our own way and mine is in ever-questioning. I've always the enjoyed seeking far more than the finding in other areas of my life.

I'm not sure that asking about purpose is relevant to questions of reality, beyond those of human desires. Part of me hopes that I'm wrong; however I am certain that no one else I've yet heard from is right!

Late last year (i think is was around the 5th of December) I had to supervise the students that are a level below me. This was all part of an "exercise" and i was supervised by a teacher. This teacher happened to be my English teacher who had an extraordinary theory (which is followed by many others) it goes like this:

The entire universe has been filled with a mass that we know as atoms/particles. All these particles are interconnected with each other and also have a lot of energy. According to him studies had proven that one particle can fulfill the earths need for power for eternity. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter. The interconnection does, for each particle can connect to another trough an unlimited number of ways. Every particle contains information that can (re)create an event.

In this way if all particles are set the way they were 2000 years ago we would go back 2000 years. This also means we don't exist because we were not there 2000 years ago. Of course this will not happen, and in my opinion cannot happen. What is interesting is that you can use this theory to explain a lot of "mysterious" things like telekinetic.

Taken in the event of reincarnation it is possible that you are build from old building block that happened to be you thousands of years ago. I find this complex and almost impossible, but if there are higher forces like souls, it might be a group of "special" particles that recollect everything you have done from the moment you were born first, till this day (and beyond).

I'm a bit puzzled myself too now, maybe someone else sees some fatal flaw in this theory or likes to expand it to better match the question.

To return to the topic, and maybe even a bit off topic:

Why should we even want to be reincarnated?

Reincarnation as we know it
Reincarnation as we have know it basically means "to be made flesh again". Although the exact rules for this to happen differ from religion to religion. However the core stays the same: After you die you will return to earth again, and live another life. And after that again and again till finally you met the requirements put out by your religion.

Let's take the fact that reincarnation is real
Then the Christians and other religions were wrong all along.

Because we reincarnate there is no place in heaven or hell for us for a long long long time, and maybe these places don't even exist or are just a temporary state to see the errors in our way and go on to live our next lives.

Also if reincarnation and karma have such define powers why should God exist as an cruel lord that we must pray to every day, and worship? Why should God have made the universe, and why above all should he possess all our human quality's and even bother with us? Maybe god is nothing more than the collection of energy's that are Karma, Reincarnation and other (not yet known) powers that keep the universe together, and only exist as long as our universe exists.

The law of karma is for those still under law - "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."

It seems our understanding of reincarnation needs to be complicated to a degree.

If we accept the notion that some immortal soul is being reincarnated, what you provide above seems accurate. However, let us consider reincarnation in light of a Buddhist precept - that self is an illusion. Buddhism is perhaps the most notable faith tradition to teach reincarnation, so their take seems valid. Basically, as they believe there is nothing essentially "me", "I" will not be reincarnated - instead, all that I like to call "me" will be reincarnated.

Reincarnation was not an uncommon belief among early Christians. Even today, many Christians believe in some sort of reincarnation.

I think this depends on how we approach heaven and hell. If we take these terms to be allegory, reincarnation does not seem to threaten the notions.

Much of this depends upon what we call "God", and how we approach prayer and worship. As for God having human qualities, that man often attributes to God human qualities has often been objected to - a worthy objection, I think, even if we do not consider reincarnation, karma, ect.

When we talk about reincarnation, we must first identify what is being reincarnated.

From a purely natural standpoint, reincarnation seems so obvious. We are organic machines, we take in materials, and expel materials. Everything physical that makes up what we call ourselves was once something else, and will one day be something other than us. These are facts. Dust to dust.

The difficulties begin to occur when we introduce the notion of something essential to ourselves, be it a soul, a mind, whatever. Physically, there is nothing essentially "me", only things which at the moment make up what is called "me". Faced with nothing that is physically essential to us, we have a tendency to postulate about something essential to us that is nonphysical. Such a notion of a soul is possible, I suppose, though I've yet to hear a coherent explaination of such phenomenon.

Vasska, you seem to be struggling with the same problem I was having when it comes to beliefs about God. I started out in mainstream Christianity, where they constantly preached eternal torment for sins. I couldn't bring myself to believe that a loving God would create humans capable of sinning and then torture them for an eternity for it. It brought to mind: why also would a loving God ask us to love our enemies and then torment them for eternity . . . is this not hypocritical!?!

It sounds as if you may have been hurt by what has been forced into your understanding - perhaps you believed them or are still struggling with the possibility of what might be true. Don't let what they say scare you; "fear" is just a tool (a good one) to keep people from sinning. The law of karma is for those still under law - "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth." We are no longer under that law and have forgiveness of sins

If you seek diligently with all your heart, you will find truth. Trust from within, not what others say to plant fear.

Care to explain this?

The law of karma is for those still under law - "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."

Care to explain this?

I had the exact same idea about God! Why would he be the kid with the sunglasses burning ants while he had the power to make such complex creatures like us, animals insects, weather patterns, EVERYTHING!

I got hurt by religion because it keeps bothering me and knocking on my door while i don't give a damn about it anymore. I dislike religious people who try to ban books like Harry Potter because they don't fit in with their beliefs. I read all 7 books last year and really loved them, they did not even contain a slightest notion of God or anything to put "our holy father" in bad light. I will never ever ban a book just because i don't like it. I accept that people like those books and i just don't. But i can't accept the fact why people always have to have their ways. I found my answer to live in philosophy and science but i don't bother people with it who don't want to hear about it, i don't feel the need to ban the bible because it is nothing in contrast with the teachings from Plato, Socrates or other.

I find it saddening that religion captures people and influence governments and make sure their beliefs laws. I'm just tired of religions.

About the best I can do for now is a quote from Florence Scovel Shinn:

Jesus Christ brought the good news (the gospel) that there was a higher law than the law of Karma-and that that law transcends the law of Karma. It is the law of grace, or forgiveness. It is the law which frees man from the law of cause and effect-the law of consequence. "Under grace, and not under law."

We are told that on this plane, man reaps where he has not sown; the gifts of God are simply poured out upon him. "All that the Kingdom affords is his." This continued state of bliss awaits the man who has overcome the race (or world) thought.

In the world thought there is tribulation, but Jesus Christ said: "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

The world thought is that of sin, sickness and death. He saw their absolute unreality and said sickness and sorrow shall pass away and death itself, the last enemy, be overcome.



Follow your heart's desire, as there is something to be learned from every experience. You are more aware than most kids your age - keep running!

Buddhism is indeed the most notable to teach reincarnation. The "I" as in me as human being can indeed be removed if we accept that our soul is something different than "we", and "we" are only and extension and temporary state of the soul. This means we humans only exist on earth because the soul that has to learn the lessons and "pay" it's karmic debts, in this way we can human can be considered a "brain in a vat" where we are free within a world, but still under the command of the supercomputer, in this cause the soul.

Don't get me wrong, you've got a point, but it's so hard to pinpoint the role of reincarnation in Christianity.

If we indeed approach heaven and hell allegory then they are not affected by the idea of reincarnation, but i don't think they are of any use if we have reincarnation for we don't stop living.

About the best I can do for now is a quote from Florence Scovel Shinn:

Jesus Christ brought the good news (the gospel) that there was a higher law than the law of Karma-and that that law transcends the law of Karma. It is the law of grace, or forgiveness. It is the law which frees man from the law of cause and effect-the law of consequence. "Under grace, and not under law."

We are told that on this plane, man reaps where he has not sown; the gifts of God are simply poured out upon him. "All that the Kingdom affords is his." This continued state of bliss awaits the man who has overcome the race (or world) thought.

In the world thought there is tribulation, but Jesus Christ said: "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

The world thought is that of sin, sickness and death. He saw their absolute unreality and said sickness and sorrow shall pass away and death itself, the last enemy, be overcome.

That's the thing - Buddhism considers self illusory. Even the notion that there is a "soul" in of itself that does anything is considered to be illusory by Buddhists.

John Lennon compared death to getting out of one car, and getting into another. According to Buddhism, there is no one to get out of the first car, much less anyone to get into the second.

Because reincarnation does not have a "role" in Christianity, rather, it has a role in the lives of some Christians. Christians are a diverse group, with many different and conflicting beliefs.

Heaven and hell have a role if they are allegorical, and if we accept reincarnation. Buddhism uses similar allegories - the various realms of existence, hungry ghosts, this sort of thing.

Heaven and hell would represent the "heaven" of compassion, love for others, kindness,ect , or the "hell" of chasing desire, selfishness, violence, ect.

Yet none of this reconciles karma with 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. I doubt they can be reconciled. An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, is instruction for handling situations - should someone harm you, return the harm equally unto them. Karma, on the other hand, is like the law of gravity, simply the way things work - that every action has a reaction, and that the reaction is relative to the action.

Even then, you still have not shown how Christ's teachings are contrary to karma. Karma, quite simply, is that good things beget good things, bad things beget bad things.

Yet none of this reconciles karma with 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. I doubt they can be reconciled. An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, is instruction for handling situations - should someone harm you, return the harm equally unto them. Karma, on the other hand, is like the law of gravity, simply the way things work - that every action has a reaction, and that the reaction is relative to the action.

Even then, you still have not shown how Christ's teachings are contrary to karma. Karma, quite simply, is that good things beget good things, bad things beget bad things.