Discussing others truths

@nameless,

nameless wrote:

If what you want to 'share' is what you consider to be 'the truth', (and therefore you have nothing to gain or learn from critical thoughtful examination of your 'sharing'), isn't that to be considered 'proselytizing'? Evangelizing? Like 'sharing' the 'Good News'?! It isn't a 'discussion', it is you 'knowing' and us not. It is disrespectful. I understand how my critical examination of your evangelization would make you unhappy, but this is a site for critical thought, not proselytization. The words tumbling from your mouth are no more or less 'true' than any one else's words. Truth is in the perception of the beholder, unless you believe the 'ego' that you, alone, 'possess' the 'Truth', and are on a mission from god to share it with all us poor heathens. This is not the place for such 'religious' and disrespectful antics.

Perhaps the place for you to "share with no harm" (thoughtful challenges that you are obviously unprepared to answer) might be your own website. Then you can 'harm control' what you like. Here, there will be challenges, to your words, your concepts, your stated beliefs, to your intent and method of delivery. If you cannot stand that 'heat' you are in the wrong kitchen!

This is the negativity and anger that I will not tolerate nor respond to again. Please do not write in my thread anymore, obviously the truth upset you so. Thanks

=
MJA

2 Replies

@MJA,

MJA;40323 wrote:

This is the negativity and anger that I will not tolerate nor respond to again. Please do not write in my thread anymore, obviously the truth upset you so. Thanks

=
MJA

MJA, I didn't see any negativity or anger in that post. Isn't it good to question, analyze, and criticize ideas? This is how we arrive at "the truth"-- by close examination and dialogue. There is reason, and there is revelation. The latter appears to be what you are engaged in, and if this is the case, it is a bit hard for us to understand that you have found "the truth". What is it, how do you prove it, and why is it "your" truth and still undiscovered by the rest of us?

1 Reply

@MJA,

I think it important, as a Moderator, to point out that once a Member initiates a post, the thread that ensues belongs to the community of Members and readers. As long as Members do not violate Forum rules, they may post in reply, whether the original poster likes what they say or not. That is their right, just as it is the right of any Member NOT to post or reply.

0 Replies

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Is this Philosophy Forum only for the purpose of discussing others truths,
or is it allowable good and right to come here and share Ones' own truth?
It seems so terribly discomforting for so many here, sharing truth.
Writing about equality and Oneness, unity and freedom, Why is that so?
Philosophy should never be so.
Truth should be loved, and with love One becomes a philosopher I am absolutely sure.
Do tell, perhaps I've come to the wrong place again.
Whoa is me, whoa is me...

=
MJA

Yas makin life difficult... I thought I was looking for one slimey critter and you say I'm chasing a whole school....

0 Replies

@MJA,

MJA;40323 wrote:

Please do not write in my thread anymore

This desire to ostracize and anathemise me/these words reflects the 'Oneness, unity and freedom' of which you speak, how?

1 Reply

@nameless,

Well then nameless One say something positive about a truth which is universal, a Truth that is both me and you like: God is One.
Surely you agree, and if not please explain why not in a good and courtious Way. That's is all I ask.
Sorry if I have seen your responses as hostle, perhaps I've misjudged you so please try again.
Maybe we can eventually come to a unified truth that suits us both as well as all. For nature's truth is the unity or Oneness of All.
Imagine that.

=
MJA

jgweed wrote:

I think it important, as a Moderator, to point out that once a Member initiates a post, the thread that ensues belongs to the community of Members and readers. As long asa Members do not violate Forum rules, they may post in reply, whether the original poster likes what they say or not. That is their right, just as it is the right of any Member NOT to post or reply.

Thanks for your patience and guidance, your right of course and so then lets move on. Lets discuss the truth we have all come to share with others as equal as myself, in a kind and courtious Way.
To Truth!

=
MJA

Pangloss wrote:

MJA, I didn't see any negativity or anger in that post. Isn't it good to question, analyze, and criticize ideas? This is how we arrive at "the truth"-- by close examination and dialogue. There is reason, and there is revelation. The latter appears to be what you are engaged in, and if this is the case, it is a bit hard for us to understand that you have found "the truth". What is it, how do you prove it, and why is it "your" truth and still undiscovered by the rest of us?

Perhaps my concern for a negative free thread is beyond the sensitivity of most. I hope my concern for treating others truths as well as my own in a rightful or just way was not inappropreate, but only the right thing to do.

As for truth Pangloss, have you found it yet?
I am certain I have.
Truth is

=
MJA

2 Replies

@Pangloss,

MJA wrote:

As for truth Pangloss, have you found it yet?
I am certain I have.
Truth is

=
MJA

MJA,

Again i admire your passion. Though I think you will grow by listening closely to others opinions. Not saying to agree, but infact to understand where they're coming from. when you do this, you'll find new ways to express your truth and perhaps spread it further.

Also, try to remember that many people know many of their truths, but that doesn't mean we can express them for other's perceptions . Again, this is supported by your own truth(=). In fact, expressing my truths while also not contaminating other's, is probably my hardest articulation. Here are some of my truths:

Love
Knowledge
Equality
Understanding
Light

not in that particular order, and sometimes not under those titles.

1 Reply

@Joe,

Joe wrote:

MJA,

Again i admire your passion. Though I think you will grow by listening closely to others opinions. Not saying to agree, but infact to understand where they're coming from. when you do this, you'll find new ways to express your truth and perhaps spread it further.

Also, try to remember that many people know many of their truths, but that doesn't mean we can express them for other's perceptions . Again, this is supported by your own truth(=). In fact, expressing my truths while also not contaminating other's, is probably my hardest articulation. Here are some of my truths:

Love
Knowledge
Equality
Understanding
Light

not in that particular order, and sometimes not under those titles.

Thanks Joe for your continued input, for the record your truth is equal = to my own. Well done!

=
MJA

0 Replies

@MJA,

I believe in a concept, or "truth" that we can achieve, when we are all ready for it-- that would include the idea of an absolute justice, such as the golden rule, and the realization that we are all children and siblings of God/Creation/Nature or what have you. Without relying on ancient ideas of the divine, I think we can find common ground in our origin that is shared by all life on this earth. And with some type of ultimate realization of this "truth", we can all give and receive the respect, kindness, and even adoration that we all deserve as fellow living beings on this planet.

I believe in this, because I have seen the effects of these ideas, commonly arrived at by philosophers, writers, artists, prophets, and others, throughout the globe, throughout our history; these ideas have inspired good in the world around us. I know that we can all recognize "good" and "bad" in this world, and this is proof to me of both "good" paths and "bad" paths that we can choose to take. I am for the "good" path; where we truly see each other as equals, and where the experience of life, whether induced by the random events of nature or by the divine hand of God, is recognized by all as the sacred ground that links our very souls.

Now, this is my belief of "truth", as it applies to my, our human existence. It is a concept that I hold in my mind, and one that I hope can be realized throughout this world, but I have not yet "found" this truth, for the path will be long and difficult before I can look around me and say that we have indeed found this. I personally will never completely find it, until my fellow humans have arrived there with me.

This idea of truth or goodness that we may strive for is out there somewhere (or inside us all somewhere), but we need to navigate the good path to reach it. Until I can look around me and say, "we have arrived", I will continue to critically question everything along the path, to hopefully make some effort, at least in my own journey, to stay the course of the good. So, I do not think we can say that we have found this truth, indeed there is much work to be done, many ideas to be considered, scrutinized, questioned. This is why I am wary of those who preach "truth", but do not offer specific advice...we need guidance, and simply telling us that it is "out there to be found" or "inside to be found" does not do enough.

You wanted my personal thoughts, you got it, take it or leave it. Smile

0 Replies

@MJA,

MJA;40445 wrote:

Well then nameless One say something positive about a truth which is universal, a Truth that is both me and you like: God is One.

What "universal truth" needs me to 'make nice' to it? That would be ludicrous! Besides, 'this' universe is not divided into piles of 'positive' and 'negative', 'good' and 'bad/evil'. What is, is!

I think that you would have a difficult time verifying/validating something as a "universal truth". You would have to make a proposition of a supposed "universal truth" and it would have to withstand the whirlwind unleashed against it. Ultimately, every person, every 'Perspective', human or otherwise, would have to agree with your assertion, for it to truly be 'universal'.

I might have stumbled on a couple, but it would take the 'duration of existence' to ever validate it's claim of universality. Until then, they are theories, hypothesis, assertions, experimental data, food for thought, lots of things, but there is no way to 'prove' anything, much less that something is a "universal truth".
For example;

One that I offered is;
"In Silentium, Verum!" - Book of Fudd (1:1)
"In Silence, Truth!"
(Things sound so much more... truthy... in Latin! *__- )

As soon as I offered it, 'argument' began, but none could 'dislodge' it's 'truthiness'. Even a 'universal truth' both is and isn't. It all depends on Perspective.

Here's another;
"For every Perspective, there's an equal and opposite Perspective!" - Book of Fudd (1:2)
Arguing the point just proves it!

Though this might seem as an undefeated universal truth to me, in 'this' universe, it might well not be seen thus by others. So it both is and isn't a 'universal truth'. Quantum 'phenomena'.

But i can offer "truths" these for scrutiny and dissection and critical examination and experiment and the longer they 'survive' the longer they survive. I cannot sell/push them as 'universal truths' other than by stating that they are 'universal' according to 'this' (my perceived) universe. I cannot describe your reality to you. That would be too arrogant. And would manifest howls of indignation.
I can offer them as food for thought and be here to answer questions and elucidate. If the respectful and honest questioning manages to refute something, fine. We forge ahead. It gets hot sometimes with many people 'attacking' an idea from many directions, but the hotter the fire, the truer the gold produced. The dross will burn off (from the concepts in your mind) and what is left will be 'truer' and elligible to progress onward rather than the scrap heap of critical thought. Perhaps the whole thing burns off. We all still benefit as one mor lie stripped from before our eyes.

"The Tao that can be spoken, is not the Tao!" -Lao Tsu
And is...

One cannot give 'truth' to another. One can lead and point in a direction that might work for you, but the seeker will have to find his own 'truths', within...

"He who dares to teach must never cease to learn." - Richard Henry Dann

"If a teacher is indeed wise, he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind." - Kahil Gibran

Peace

2 Replies

@nameless,

Now we're talkin truths, that is what this thread is All about, the truth of All, for All is surely One as One is surely All.
Thanks All, When I have more time I will more closely read or see what is
True to you.

=
MJA

0 Replies

@MJA,

Truth is proof... We conceive of the world, of everything meaningful in the world... We do not see the world directly, but see our conceptions of it, our forms... These forms must fit with reality...Number is a form... They help us conceive of reality... If we count the cows, we have to arrive at the same number at least twice, or we cannot even reach the form... Truth is what our forms are... When we use forms to define or describe, or communicate our reality, it is the form which is tested.

1 Reply

@nameless,

nameless wrote:

What is, is!

Peace

You nailed it, a simple universal truth.
Truth is!
Thanks for your contribution.

=
MJA

Fido wrote:

Truth is

And you know too!

Your just like Plato.
Wasn't it he who invented forms?
Is the universe a perfect form?
Is the universe true to you?
It is to me.

=
MJA

Pangloss wrote:

I believe in a concept, or "truth" that we can achieve, when we are all ready for it-- that would include the idea of an absolute justice, such as the golden rule, and the realization that we are all children and siblings of God/Creation/Nature or what have you. Without relying on ancient ideas of the divine, I think we can find common ground in our origin that is shared by all life on this earth. And with some type of ultimate realization of this "truth", we can all give and receive the respect, kindness, and even adoration that we all deserve as fellow living beings on this planet.

I believe in this, because I have seen the effects of these ideas, commonly arrived at by philosophers, writers, artists, prophets, and others, throughout the globe, throughout our history; these ideas have inspired good in the world around us. I know that we can all recognize "good" and "bad" in this world, and this is proof to me of both "good" paths and "bad" paths that we can choose to take. I am for the "good" path; where we truly see each other as equals, and where the experience of life, whether induced by the random events of nature or by the divine hand of God, is recognized by all as the sacred ground that links our very souls.

Now, this is my belief of "truth", as it applies to my, our human existence. It is a concept that I hold in my mind, and one that I hope can be realized throughout this world, but I have not yet "found" this truth, for the path will be long and difficult before I can look around me and say that we have indeed found this. I personally will never completely find it, until my fellow humans have arrived there with me.

This idea of truth or goodness that we may strive for is out there somewhere (or inside us all somewhere), but we need to navigate the good path to reach it. Until I can look around me and say, "we have arrived", I will continue to critically question everything along the path, to hopefully make some effort, at least in my own journey, to stay the course of the good. So, I do not think we can say that we have found this truth, indeed there is much work to be done, many ideas to be considered, scrutinized, questioned. This is why I am wary of those who preach "truth", but do not offer specific advice...we need guidance, and simply telling us that it is "out there to be found" or "inside to be found" does not do enough.

You wanted my personal thoughts, you got it, take it or leave it.

Thanks Pangloss, You have found the truth yourself, and I've highlighted your own universal truth words for you.
If you only simplified you own words and removed any doubt, like I have done here for you, you might see it for yourself.
Anyone who can write that they believe in the words you have written, knows what truth is.
Nicely done,

=
MJA

0 Replies

@MJA,

But, if we remove all doubt, how can we be sure that we are not engaged in self-deception?

I can still be infinitesimally close to accepting my truth, but maintaining some doubt can at least force me to keep on guard when trying to discover new shades of my truth. My inner dialogue always forces me to doubt and question.

My "truth" is like the magnum opus of my existence. I may have the concept in my mind of the overall image, sound, feeling of that painting or symphony that I am trying to create...that concept I do not doubt. What I doubt is how best to utilize every small bit of color, every stroke of the brush...every note of sound in this symphony of life; how does it come together? Of that, I am not certain, and so I do doubt the intricacies of my own reconstruction of the concept, to avoid self-deception...I could say that I have it all figured out, but I don't. I have the idea, but not the implications or the details. For the areas where we do have doubt, that is where philosophy comes in. We can use reason to determine which details work, and which don't.

0 Replies

@Fido,

MJA wrote:

Fido wrote:
Truth is quote]

And you know too!

Your just like Plato.
Wasn't it he who invented forms?
Is the universe a perfect form?
Is the universe true to you?
It is to me.

=
MJA

I think Plato worked on a theory of forms, but it was wrecked by his metaphysics... And it come nearly up to our age when Jefferson says all men are created equal... What would creation do without a concept of equality to make men by???

1 Reply

@Fido,

My purpose for starting this thread was only to create a safer place where One could share his truth with others without fear. Thanks everone for participating and sharing some of your own philosophy or truths and in equally a rightful way.

Here is another of mine that I wrote today,
See if you like it:

Poetry

When words have no rules or regulations
And a sentence has no bounds
That is where the poet hides
Where truth can still be found

The word is mightier than the sword they say
When words are truly free
Poetry is the words of a poet
Then the poet has the power of Thee

There is a lesson to learn in poetry
A remedy and a cure
For poetry are words of freedom
And in freedom the truth shall set us free

What is the truth One wonders
In the phrase and phrases of a rhyme
The true poetry of a free poet
Will bring equality to All in Just time

For freedom is equality
Unity of not only mankind
The true words of a poets' poetry
Is the beautiful true Oneness of All kind.

=
MJA

0 Replies

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Perhaps my concern for a negative free thread is beyond the sensitivity of most. I hope my concern for treating others truths as well as my own in a rightful or just way was not inappropreate, but only the right thing to do.

I'm going to say a few words, and I honestly don't know how relevant they are a month later:

I don't believe the problem is your concern for a negative free thread, but rather your conservative usage of negativity. Criticism is not negative if articulated through mature, respectable discourse. In the case of this forum, there are many that are capable of this. If your goal is to seek a place to be safe of mature criticism, this is not it. I fear every time I post, and for good reason - I'm hoping that I can be intellectually driven by another mind so I can grow, learn, and become enlightened. Fear drives me in this respect, it is by no means negative. Placing myself outside of my comfort zone is what helps improve my character.

With that said, you can always enlighten others without being disrespectful or presenting yourself in a childish manner, so that, as you can see from the forum rules, is as close as you can get to "safe" here. But I must tell you: Some of the harshest cuts I've ever bled haven't been from immature, insulting yammering, but from intelligent, respectable contention. See, my ego gets the very best of me at times, and it doesn't dumb down from idiotic expression of emotion. Rather, I need intellectualism to put me down good. If I didn't place myself in a vulnerable position by posting in the midst of great minds, I would never heighten my perception, I would never become enlightened.

If this is what you're not willing to do, if you don't want the truth you hold so dear to your well-being analyzed, questioned, and sometimes ripped from under your feet, this really is not the place for you. I've read your posts and I see you as an asset here, but this is most definitely a harsh environment for those that cannot lessen the grip of their ego. Share your truth, express it fully and with great fervor, but learn to accept the disturbance when you actually begin to ponder: "What if I'm wrong?"

- Z

0 Replies

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Is this Philosophy Forum only for the purpose of discussing others truths,
or is it allowable good and right to come here and share Ones' own truth?
It seems so terribly discomforting for so many here, sharing truth.
Writing about equality and Oneness, unity and freedom, Why is that so?
Philosophy should never be so.
Truth should be loved, and with love One becomes a philosopher I am absolutely sure.
Do tell, perhaps I've come to the wrong place again.
Whoa is me, whoa is me...

I guess again I've missed a good OP and have come in to the room late. Dang!

I think your questions and concerns here are quite valid. I don't much have an answer, or at least an answer that you likely don't already know. I do have a suggestion, which may or may not help: When you state a Truth that's uniquely yours, one borne of your own insight and understanding, state it as "yours". I think a primary key to reducing defensiveness in these discussions is expressing subjectivity as subjectivity.[INDENT] For example, I believe firmly that "X" is the way things are. I believe it so firmly and am so confident in my support that, to me, it IS truth. However, because I happen to know others don't think that way (and feel just as strongly), I'll say "I believe", "The way I see the truth is..." or "I've been led to the conclusion that...".
[/INDENT][INDENT]This isn't being wishy-washy, it's speaking in a manner that - by its phrasing - allows others to retain a divergent point of view while simultaneously protecting the vehemence that I feel.
[/INDENT]Anyway, if the aforementioned doesn't help at all, know here's another who knows what you're talking about and can identify, if nothing else.

Good luck!

PS: I don't get a lot of what you say, quite often. But I get the distinct impression that not only do you FEEL these things deeply, but that you're "laying it out there" in a make that makes you vulnerable. Whether or not this is true, I can't say; but I can say that I think such personal expressions, that don't protect or qualify too much, have an extremely-high human worth. And yea, I know you didn't ask Smile

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@MJA,

Why worry about it...State your case, and accept your abuse... Why worry whether the criticism is mature... Childishness invite childisness...And we are all only children in our way, all trying to find our way through...And if you think some one has their head in their horn, what is the kind way to tell them but the fast way???

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Why worry about it...State your case, and accept your abuse... Why worry whether the criticism is mature... Childishness invite childisness...And we are all only children in our way, all trying to find our way through...And if you think some one has their head in their horn, what is the kind way to tell them but the fast way???

I.
Oneself.
Universal truth.
Equality is Nature's truth,
The truth mankind is searching for,
The truth that will set the universe free.
My truth is universally One.
Is yours equally too?
I hope so.
Be free,

=
MJA

0 Replies

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