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What Is Your Problem With Anarchy?

 
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 02:55 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
People are only as good as the world allows them to be. So, in Anarchy, where are the limitations such as state rules preventing certain kids from getting scholarships yet giving away free school to those with darker skin tone or the inability for many to get a job because outsourcing is easier and cheaper? You say that people will be greedy. I say GOOD! The more greedy people are, the more they will have to strive to achieve and the more benefit they will give to the world. Imagine, if you will, all information is open-source, all materials available. You can do anything so long as you have the determination and will power, with no government regulations to stop you. What most people fail to see is that human qualities such as greed and lust become beneficial in a society where you can do anything you want. These attributes of the human condition serve to increase human capability. We view them as bad now because we have no proper way of dealing with them.


Yes! The nature of the modern economy and the division of labor necessitates that one trades to become wealthy. One can only satisfy one's greed by in turn satisfying the desires of the other productive members of society.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 02:59 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I for one would not could not live in a society where the least is not treated as an equal..


Your words betray you. You cannot even make them treat all as equals.
Joe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 03:14 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
I would just like to say that I think that Buddhas First Nobel truth is the foundation in which to build society on. Anarchy seems in way to want to address suffering in a interesting way. Whether or not it would WORK? you could debate that until the sun comes up. But I guess someone has to make ground. right?


LIFE IS SUFFERING
0 Replies
 
incubusman8
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 05:56 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
People are only as good as the world allows them to be. So, in Anarchy, where are the limitations such as state rules preventing certain kids from getting scholarships yet giving away free school to those with darker skin tone or the inability for many to get a job because outsourcing is easier and cheaper? You say that people will be greedy. I say GOOD! The more greedy people are, the more they will have to strive to achieve and the more benefit they will give to the world. Imagine, if you will, all information is open-source, all materials available. You can do anything so long as you have the determination and will power, with no government regulations to stop you. What most people fail to see is that human qualities such as greed and lust become beneficial in a society where you can do anything you want. These attributes of the human condition serve to increase human capability. We view them as bad now because we have no proper way of dealing with them.

Pardon me dor sounding like Yoda here, but greed can lead to other larger problems. Take for example the increasing radicalism of Nazi policy.
Icon wrote:

If humans are only animals for reproduction then we should go back to the anarchistic nature of... well... nature.

They're much more than that. That's just at the cornerstone of our nature.
0 Replies
 
nicodemus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 06:24 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
i wholeheartedly agree with the greed is good philosophy, but it once again falls back to human nature, even if you could convince the world to throw off its governments, lets even be more imaginative, all groups that restrict members in any way are removed, people will still band together into new restrictive groups. Take unions for example, a better display of natural seeking of government i cannot find, people banded together, elected leaders, not because of tradition or following a crowd, or outside pressure, but for protection from their fellow humans, and for the feeling that they were not alone and that by using many as one organism, they could increase their power. Lets extend this metaphore even further to today. Now, unions have brought the rich producers of this countries to their knees. THe average auto worker earns up to 70 dollars an hour including benefits, and for what? Riveting. But i digress. the point is, the only way you could establish a lasting anarchy would be to alter human nature, which is a form of control, which a true anarchist would find abhorrent
Joe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 07:31 pm
@nicodemus,
Quote:
all groups that restrict members in any way are removed, people will still band together into new restrictive groups.


Look at that sentence again. Why would they form new restrictive groups? your assuming that they wouldn't want no restrictions.

Quote:
Take unions for example, a better display of natural seeking of government i cannot find, people banded together, elected leaders, not because of tradition or following a crowd, or outside pressure, but for protection from their fellow humans,


You said it yourself. Because of the restrictions of others (government). But again if you remove all restriction groups, what would cause more restriction groups? Power over resources. Anarchy addresses that.

Is it really human nature to control alot of power?
I dont believe thats the case. Unfortunately its an easy case in choice, to sustain the idea of control.
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2008 07:30 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
I think that the hardest part about explaining Anarchy is that people refuse to step out of what they know to consider new possibilities. Imagine waking up one morining and being told that you were now fully responsible for your life. No government would help, no organization would guarantee your life style, no police to promise security. All you had was you. You had to make your way through life and you had to do so with 7.62 billion others who were stuck doing the same thing. You were stuck dealing solely with the consequences of your actions.

Would you really want to kill? Would you really want to freak out and break all of the rules you had known? I know I wouldn't. First thing I would figure out is how to eat. Second, where to stay. Third, how to continue both of these. I would do what it took to survive and thrive. It's that simple.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2008 08:38 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
Your words betray you. You cannot even make them treat all as equals.
my words describe me they dont betray me...make make...the majority in a decent society would not need making ..just by recognising the least is a massive step for a society.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2008 12:59 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
my words describe me they dont betray me...make make...the majority in a decent society would not need making ..just by recognising the least is a massive step for a society.


They do describe you, and that is why they betray you.

You both deny equality and affirm it. You say we should treat the least as equals. Your words show you accept that there is natural inequality, and only added inequality can be used to level it.

It is not possible to treat the least as equals.
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2008 01:35 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
They do describe you, and that is why they betray you.

You both deny equality and affirm it. You say we should treat the least as equals. Your words show you accept that there is natural inequality, and only added inequality can be used to level it.

It is not possible to treat the least as equals.

Which is why, in anarchy, the least have the chance to become equal but must do so on their own power. "No special programs or government controlled resources dedicated to giving money to those who refuse to provide for themselves.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2008 02:31 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Which is why, in anarchy, the least have the chance to become equal but must do so on their own power. "No special programs or government controlled resources dedicated to giving money to those who refuse to provide for themselves.


I wonder what arguments could be proposed that justifies violent imposition of inequality to rectify natural inequality.

Casting aside my personal conviction that someone is not born a person, but rather that free humans create in themselves people, what possibly justifies using the "best" to serve as a means to the ends of the "least"?
0 Replies
 
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 10:15 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
I think that the hardest part about explaining Anarchy is that people refuse to step out of what they know to consider new possibilities. Imagine waking up one morining and being told that you were now fully responsible for your life. No government would help, no organization would guarantee your life style, no police to promise security. All you had was you. You had to make your way through life and you had to do so with 7.62 billion others who were stuck doing the same thing. You were stuck dealing solely with the consequences of your actions.

Would you really want to kill? Would you really want to freak out and break all of the rules you had known? I know I wouldn't. First thing I would figure out is how to eat. Second, where to stay. Third, how to continue both of these. I would do what it took to survive and thrive. It's that simple.


Perhaps you find it beneficial to build up a small town, and the community decides that laws are good for their own safety......then we are on the road right back to where we started. What is to say that community is not a natural impulse for humans? People are cowards, for the most part. Just as any animal, we are mostly concerned with our own survival, and after that, comfort, then freedom. If we are kept in perpetual fear, then we do not care or notice our freedoms slipping away. If we see things which can make our lives more comfortable, we pursue them in lieu of freedom. Not necessarily wittingly so or in an outright manner, but we do it nonetheless.

If the people are fearful, they will group together to stave off danger, and once again, they will build a society, create rules, and lie back while the more ambitious take the power and responsibility that no one else really wants willingly.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2008 10:27 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
They do describe you, and that is why they betray you.

You both deny equality and affirm it. You say we should treat the least as equals. Your words show you accept that there is natural inequality, and only added inequality can be used to level it.

It is not possible to treat the least as equals.
Sorry but your words mark you out...there is a natural inequality in ability by nature but more so by nurture..your intentions would be to maintain that inequality mine would narrow that quality.We should treat each as equals ,my morals say that there goes i save for chance..
lakeshoredrive
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2008 12:26 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
All I can tell from reading through this discussion is that people are not understanding the idea of absence. Nothingness. To me, anarchy (absence of rule) means more than no 'established government,' for lack of a better term. It means the total and complete absence of rule, coercion, establishment, and authority.
Anarchy is not a political belief. It is a natural phenomenon. It is something that occurs when authority ceases to exist among people.

An anarchist is someone who understands that authority is an idea, and does not exist outside of the mind. There is nothing inherently different about a police officer that gives him the right to stop me from doing anything. Regardless of what the 6.72 (not 7.62, Icon Smile) billion other people in the world say, my understanding of this idea is the quality the defines me as an anarchist. My rejection of the idea of authority.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2008 04:38 am
@lakeshoredrive,
lakeshoredrive wrote:
All I can tell from reading through this discussion is that people are not understanding the idea of absence. Nothingness. To me, anarchy (absence of rule) means more than no 'established government,' for lack of a better term. It means the total and complete absence of rule, coercion, establishment, and authority.
Anarchy is not a political belief. It is a natural phenomenon. It is something that occurs when authority ceases to exist among people.

An anarchist is someone who understands that authority is an idea, and does not exist outside of the mind. There is nothing inherently different about a police officer that gives him the right to stop me from doing anything. Regardless of what the 6.72 (not 7.62, Icon Smile) billion other people in the world say, my understanding of this idea is the quality the defines me as an anarchist. My rejection of the idea of authority.
Convince me if you can that the weak will survive?
lakeshoredrive
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2008 02:43 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Convince me if you can that the weak will survive?


Anyone who chooses to live free and independent of society and government is not weak. I am not suggesting that anarchism should be applied to any country, region, or people. I am only suggesting that individuals should consider anarchism for their own lives.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2008 03:40 pm
@lakeshoredrive,
lakeshoredrive wrote:
Anyone who chooses to live free and independent of society and government is not weak. I am not suggesting that anarchism should be applied to any country, region, or people. I am only suggesting that individuals should consider anarchism for their own lives.
So an anarchist living in a democracy is what? and is he inside or outside of society as we understand society??Its only for the brave those who are weak live in a democracy??:perplexed:
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2008 06:18 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Sorry but your words mark you out...there is a natural inequality in ability by nature but more so by nurture..your intentions would be to maintain that inequality mine would narrow that quality.We should treat each as equals ,my morals say that there goes i save for chance..


You are woefully oblivious to my intentions.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 08:04 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
You are woefully oblivious to my intentions.
So how would your anarchy treat the least?
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 01:03 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
So an anarchist living in a democracy is what? and is he inside or outside of society as we understand society??Its only for the brave those who are weak live in a democracy??:perplexed:

Living in anarchy does not put you outside of society so much as it puts you in a subclass which can change on a whim. See, anarchy in a democracy still demands that you follow certain rules and don't get caught for breaking others. weak or strong is mostly in the mind. Of course there are the exceptions of those who are born with physical or mental disadvantages but all others are born with the same potential. Whether they are weak or strong is a personal choice. Those born with a disadvantage have their own unique skills which can be used just as much as anyone else. So instead of classifying things as weak and strong, we separate skill types. Again, weak and strong, right or wrong, guilt, blame, are all concepts created by your mind in order to get along in your current society. In order to understand Anarchy, you need to break these concepts. Otherwise, it is hopeless and useless for us to explain any further because you are only going to break our concepts down into black or white binary responses and anarchy doesn't work in binary. It is not black and white. It is a more gray scale.
xris wrote:
So how would your anarchy treat the least?

The least will do as everyone else. They will do as they can as long as they can. There would be no more special treatment and baby-ing of these people. Everyone pulls their weight and finds a place where their unique skills are needed.
 

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