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What Is Your Problem With Anarchy?

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 12:48 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

--Thomas Jefferson


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"

--Benjamin Franklin
Well considering one had no moral values on slavery and was an opportunist rebel his opinion is not valid in my opinion.The other was no better..
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 12:50 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
The U.S. Democracy is what John Stuart Mill would call a tyranny of the majority. With only two viable parties a tyranny of the majority is an intrinsic feature. The tyranny is sanctioned by one party receiving more votes than the other. Little can be done to check the power held by the majority, because they would never vote to check their own power. In theory, the executive, legislative, and judicial branches were supposed to check the power of one another, but with partisan politics there is no incentive to limit your party's governing capabilities.
democracy is only as good as those who determine its values...stand up or stop moaning..
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 12:53 pm
@xris,
xris;44309 wrote:
Well considering one had no moral values on slavery and was an opportunist rebel his opinion is not valid in my opinion.The other was no better..


Considering you made an ad hominem argument against the merit of the two statements, your response is not valid, in my opinion. :bigsmile:

Anyway, you don't need nifty quotations to see the inherent problems with democracy.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 12:54 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Amazing how the inventors of modern democracy saw this to be true.

It is also interesting to me how the differences in location and culture effect the decision of the person.

I live in Texas. I own 23 fire arms of my own choosing and have a license to carry and defend. I have 4 different guns that I carry with me everywhere. I have never had to fire a shot but have used them to resolve situations. It is amazing how rational someone can be when they try to mug you with a knife and you pull out a large gun.
Thats why you have thousands of unnecessary deaths by gun shot and we dont..Your not an anarchist your a cowboy with a "Tomb stone" mentality.youde rather live in 91c frontiers town with no sheriff..
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:00 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:
Considering you made an ad hominem argument against the merit of the two statements, your response is not valid, in my opinion. :bigsmile:

Anyway, you don't need nifty quotations to see the inherent problems with democracy.
Dont mention who made the statement if you dont want them slandered..Hitler made some very pointed speeches but his character does not give them credence.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:01 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
democracy is only as good as those who determine its values...stand up or stop moaning..


In a representative democracy, the quality is only as good as the people elected. And given only two different flavors the people are forced to chose the lesser of two evils, rather than the best potential candidate due to the force of political parties. This is why representative democracy's stink. They promote far too much cronyism and corruption. Stepping outside party think can mean political suicide for a candidate as well, so they all pretty much walk the same line.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:05 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
In a representative democracy, the quality is only as good as the people elected. And given only two different flavors the people are forced to chose the lesser of two evils, rather than the best potential candidate due to the force of political parties. This is why representative democracy's stink. They promote far too much cronyism and corruption. Stepping outside party think can mean political suicide for a candidate as well, so they all pretty much walk the same line.
So give me a historic government that was better than democracy..examples please..Its the character of its population that would rather feed its greed than concerns itselfwith its government..Its only when they are affected does their attitude change..
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:06 pm
@xris,
xris;44315 wrote:
Dont mention who made the statement if you dont want them slandered..Hitler made some very pointed speeches but his character does not give them credence.


It's called citing your sources. I don't want to pass off someone else's statements as my own.

First the ad hominem, then the Hitler comparison...you're on a roll.

Theaetetus;44316 wrote:
In a representative democracy, the quality is only as good as the people elected. And given only two different flavors the people are forced to chose the lesser of two evils, rather than the best potential candidate due to the force of political parties. This is why representative democracy's stink. They promote far too much cronyism and corruption. Stepping outside party think can mean political suicide for a candidate as well, so they all pretty much walk the same line.


Right. Nobody can seriously be considered to begin with unless he/she walks the lines of the party. The financing and campaigning necessary to become elected is such that the candidate must fit a certain mold in order to even be considered. If there are thousands of potential candidates out there and the powers that be tell you that you have the freedom to vote for whoever you want, so long as it is one of 30 identical candidates that they have essentially pre-selected...how much of a choice is there really?

And, would we really be any better with direct democracy? Sure, it might be a bit more fair, but would our society be better off?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:12 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:
It's called citing your sources. I don't want to pass off someone else's statements as my own.

First the ad hominem, then the Hitler comparison...you're on a roll.
I would advice you to stand on a statement that is valid for its own merit rather than trying to impress me with your recall of others..On their own they had no merit in my opinion and when told of their source, even less.
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:16 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I would advice you to stand on a statement that is valid for its own merit rather than trying to impress me with your recall of others..On their own they had no merit in my opinion and when told of their source, even less.

You live in the UK don't you?

This makes sense. I wouldn't expect you to understand. Living in a moarchy for that long tends to make someone more dependent on their government. You say that the two men referenced earlier have no merit and yet, your country was still bowing to a queen and incestually creating a ruling class while we were free men and women trying something new. So I see no merit in your points because it seems that you have a narrow view of the subject at hand. Our founding father knew that democracy was a flawed system and knew that it was only there to hold out long enough to organize the people. Unfortunately, it stayed longer than they had hoped and is now a complete disaster. Much like the Monarchy in england.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:20 pm
@xris,
xris;44320 wrote:
I would advice you to stand on a statement that is valid for its own merit rather than trying to impress me with your recall of others..On their own they had no merit in my opinion and when told of their source, even less.


And your opinion is obviously so very important to me, that I would go out of my way to make an attempt to impress you with my vast knowledge of quotations. :sarcastic: I do hope you were impressed, that would just make my day. :shifty:
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:32 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
You live in the UK don't you?

This makes sense. I wouldn't expect you to understand. Living in a moarchy for that long tends to make someone more dependent on their government. You say that the two men referenced earlier have no merit and yet, your country was still bowing to a queen and incestually creating a ruling class while we were free men and women trying something new. So I see no merit in your points because it seems that you have a narrow view of the subject at hand. Our founding father knew that democracy was a flawed system and knew that it was only there to hold out long enough to organize the people. Unfortunately, it stayed longer than they had hoped and is now a complete disaster. Much like the Monarchy in england.
O ye and we all have straws hanging out our mouths eat fish and chips and curtsy when the queen comes for tea..I dont care much for politicians or politics but i have been known to make my voice heard on occassions..Free men ,alright if you was a freeman and not black ,dont give me this liberty and freedom for all. What a joke, i can remember when it was ok to hang a blackman for pissing in the wrong place.Carrying a gun is not only dangerous but down right insane..We had our civil wars for freedom long before the Redman new what a whitemans tongue looked like..
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:55 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
O ye and we all have straws hanging out our mouths eat fish and chips and curtsy when the queen comes for tea..I dont care much for politicians or politics but i have been known to make my voice heard on occassions..Free men ,alright if you was a freeman and not black ,dont give me this liberty and freedom for all. What a joke, i can remember when it was ok to hang a blackman for pissing in the wrong place.Carrying a gun is not only dangerous but down right insane..We had our civil wars for freedom long before the Redman new what a whitemans tongue looked like..

I would wager a guess that you have never fired a handgun in your life.

It is not only safe but effective. A piece of metal traveling at 2200 ft per second has an amazing way of desuading any would be attackers. As long as you are self controlled enough, and respectful enough, a firearm is no more dangerous than a sheet of paper. We have got into a bickering contest at this point and I knew this would eventually end up happening.

Yes, the USA is a young country. Yes England has a much longer history. But this isn't a country club of nations. Time served has no bearing on value. If it did then Africa would have the worlds ear. What matters is simple, who has the best method of persuasion. History is written by the winners. So while you talk about the USA and hanging blackmen for peeing in the wrong place, don't forget that it was the English slave traders who supplied them. Where were your oh so superior morals then? And when the Scottish and Irish were simply trying to live as nations, who was it that raped and murdered there people into submission to the crown? The english have committed more atrocities to humanity then most countries have even thought about. As a young nation, we are still learning, but we are also innovating. We are creating. Our system is broken and so is yours. This is exactly my point. Anarchy has no national boundries. It is he who can help himself and others the most that will excel.

So before you go condemning my country, look at your history. Before you claim to kow something about firearms, try using one. Before you call me insane, step into my shoes.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:04 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:
And your opinion is obviously so very important to me, that I would go out of my way to make an attempt to impress you with my vast knowledge of quotations. :sarcastic: I do hope you were impressed, that would just make my day. :shifty:
I am always impressed with peoples ability to recall certain facts..i cant..but its the value of the facts that i call into question..:a-ok:
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:20 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
I would wager a guess that you have never fired a handgun in your life.

It is not only safe but effective. A piece of metal traveling at 2200 ft per second has an amazing way of desuading any would be attackers. As long as you are self controlled enough, and respectful enough, a firearm is no more dangerous than a sheet of paper. We have got into a bickering contest at this point and I knew this would eventually end up happening.

Yes, the USA is a young country. Yes England has a much longer history. But this isn't a country club of nations. Time served has no bearing on value. If it did then Africa would have the worlds ear. What matters is simple, who has the best method of persuasion. History is written by the winners. So while you talk about the USA and hanging blackmen for peeing in the wrong place, don't forget that it was the English slave traders who supplied them. Where were your oh so superior morals then? And when the Scottish and Irish were simply trying to live as nations, who was it that raped and murdered there people into submission to the crown? The english have committed more atrocities to humanity then most countries have even thought about. As a young nation, we are still learning, but we are also innovating. We are creating. Our system is broken and so is yours. This is exactly my point. Anarchy has no national boundries. It is he who can help himself and others the most that will excel.

So before you go condemning my country, look at your history. Before you claim to kow something about firearms, try using one. Before you call me insane, step into my shoes.
As an ex member of the parachute regiment ..I have fired many weapons..Bren gun..GP. machine gun..SLR 762rifle..vickers machine gun..German machine gun Spandau ,i think its spelt, shot gun..sten gun..le en field..22 marksman rifle..sterling sub machine gun..and various foreign weapons in training exercises..A 1ww antitank gun..energa anti tank..rocket launcher ..Carl gustaf anti tank..That does not include hand guns.like 45 browning..berreta..antique weapons..I could go on but does that satisfy your question.. As for your attempt at making us English as the bad guys..sorry we are just better at kicking others butts.I am part Scots and Irish and i know they are just as nasty as us given the opportunities.As for my countries history yes it is written in blood of black men, im not proud of that fact but i dont admire those who claim freedom as holy then deny it to their slaves..
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:30 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
As an ex member of the parachute regiment ..I have fired many weapons..Bren gun..GP. machine gun..SLR 762rifle..vickers machine gun..German machine gun Spandau ,i think its spelt, shot gun..sten gun..le en field..22 marksman rifle..sterling sub machine gun..and various foreign weapons in training exercises..A 1ww antitank gun..energa anti tank..rocket launcher ..Carl gustaf anti tank..That does not include hand guns.like 45 browning..berreta..antique weapons..I could go on but does that satisfy your question.. As for your attempt at making us English as the bad guys..sorry we are just better at kicking others butts.I am part Scots and Irish and i know they are just as nasty as us given the opportunities.As for my countries history yes it is written in blood of black men, im not proud of that fact but i dont admire those who claim freedom as holy then deny it to their slaves..

I could say the same about the USA. But my argument here is that both are wrong. Both are bad. Both are flawed. Your individual perception is much more global than your nations.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 03:08 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Thats why you have thousands of unnecessary deaths by gun shot and we dont..Your not an anarchist your a cowboy with a "Tomb stone" mentality.youde rather live in 91c frontiers town with no sheriff..


Icon, how many people have you shot?
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 03:24 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
democracy is only as good as those who determine its values...stand up or stop moaning..


Holy moly! Irony is dripping off of this post!

This is a perfect summation of what we have been saying about anarchy.

Unfortunately there is a huge flaw in this thinking. Under democracy a majority can vote for horrible laws and impose the costs on those who suffer from them. Slavery, wars, etc.

Quote:
So give me a historic government that was better than democracy..examples please..Its the character of its population that would rather feed its greed than concerns itselfwith its government..Its only when they are affected does their attitude change..


Medieval Iceland and Ireland.

And the line of thinking that democracy leads to a high quality of life and liberty is the worst example of reversed causation as I have heard.

Quote:
O ye and we all have straws hanging out our mouths eat fish and chips and curtsy when the queen comes for tea..I dont care much for politicians or politics but i have been known to make my voice heard on occassions..Free men ,alright if you was a freeman and not black ,dont give me this liberty and freedom for all. What a joke, i can remember when it was ok to hang a blackman for pissing in the wrong place.Carrying a gun is not only dangerous but down right insane..We had our civil wars for freedom long before the Redman new what a whitemans tongue looked like..


Colonialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Get off your high horse.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 03:39 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
Holy moly! Irony is dripping off of this post!

This is a perfect summation of what we have been saying about anarchy.

Unfortunately there is a huge flaw in this thinking. Under democracy a majority can vote for horrible laws and impose the costs on those who suffer from them. Slavery, wars, etc.



Medieval Iceland and Ireland.

And the line of thinking that democracy leads to a high quality of life and liberty is the worst example of reversed causation as I have heard.



Colonialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Get off your high horse.
I think your use of the word irony is a misrepresentation for effect rather than substance,its nothing like your claims for anarchy......Medieval Ireland thats the best you can do? tribal warfare ??:perplexed:.As for the vikings they had a hierarchy and had rudimentary parliament.... Is your last remark rhetoric or have you a point to make??Come on im sure you will find a superb example of anarchy that we can all admire..
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:33 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Xris,
I have never shot another living thing. I have never had to (thankfully). I have been shot myself though. In the back by a drug dealer who had a gun and had stolen my gf by getting her hooked on meth. It was a rather unpleasant experience and a valuable one.

Every argument you have come up with for democracy is the same argument we have for anarchy. It is the people who give it the power. Anarchy is just the next step of giving power to the people. Anarchy gives the people absolute power. The only reason it would not work is if a person were incapable of governing him/her self. If that were the case then eventually they would interfere with the wrong person and get themselves killed or worse.

Without government, there is no war.
Without government, there is no tax.
Without government, there is no limit.
Without government, there is no segregation.
With government, there is no freedom.
 

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