The Nature Of Compassion

@nameless,

nameless wrote:

As i said earlier, there is no 'cause' for 'comapassion'. Somemoments, some people are in a state of compassion, some moments not. Some people more then others, some less, all a beautiful continuum. No cause, no effect, no linearity, just the nature of existence at the moment of observation.
We have an egoic propensity to label people; psychopath, sociopath, saint, who are simply a bit farther along on the continuum than we imagine ourselves to be.

Then would the moments people are in a state of compassion be some innate human response? and when I'd ask you why they would have that, you would need to state something metaphysical?

2 Replies

@alex717,

Alex,

Perhaps it is not off topic really, I wonder then what happened to these people, what is it in their natures that is underdeveloped or surpressed, for there is no compassion evoked in these people, what is it that is missing, damaged whatever?

1 Reply

@alex717,

alex717 wrote:

Then would the moments people are in a state of compassion be some innate human response? and when I'd ask you why they would have that, you would need to state something metaphysical?

I hate to repeat it but compassion has a recent history so what caused humanity to consider its worth?

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@boagie,

boagie;30812 wrote:

Nameless,

Perhaps you are right, it is my own discomfort that I am projecting onto you. It does seem however that whatever the topic is, it ends up being usurped by your theory, which then becomes the topic. If you can communicate it in a manner I can understand I would most appreciate it. Your right however, if it is a limitation on my part I have no business making it someone elses problem, so, we will see if someone responses to your line of enquiry. Perhaps if I listen in, I will eventually catch the drift.

Boagie.. hahaha, back again. What I offer is a 'new' and quantum leap in understanding the nature of the universes. This is where science is going. Watch. I have no illusions regarding the people reading these words. I understand the all too human desire to attach to the 'known', no matter even, how painful the 'known' might be. We do go 'kicking and screaming' into the 'future'. BUt, once in awhile...
Know that you do not have to 'accept' anything that I offer. You are not required to accept just because you might entertain a concept, hypothetically and provisionally, in order to understand what it is that I am attempting to describe and perhaps gain a bit of Perspective. I'm not selling anything, just offering some food for thought.
Peace dude

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I hate to repeat it but compassion has a recent history so what caused humanity to consider its worth?

Is that proven? No....

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Alex,

Perhaps it is not off topic really, I wonder then what happened to these people, what is it in their natures that is underdeveloped or surpressed, for there is no compassion evoked in these people, what is it that is missing, damaged whatever?

Well, most believe that is has to do with being raised experiencing constant instability and trauma, which in turn produces negative or personal victimizational responses that become etch into their neuro pathways. Therapy in turn would be used to clear the pathways and rewrite them with neutral emotions. But I hate science, so its just like a habit, someone in their crucial developmental years, got rather negative developments and this either makes them negative/non responsive, or they just ceased to develop all together.

sorry for that ramble...
" what is it in their natures that is underdeveloped or surpressed,"

trauma or neglection

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@alex717,

Yo!!

The history of compassion matters little to the considerations of the topic, what is it, and how does affect a response in the individual. There is no apparent physicality of cause which would explain the effect response, that is why people resort to a metaphyscial answer.

0 Replies

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Hi all,

Can compassion be explain without resorting to metaphysics, identifing the cause and effect, both of which one can tangiably identify and understood. I suspect the answer is no, what are your thoughts on the matter. If there are no responses to this topic we will have to conclude that it is not possiable to rationally understand compassion, without the aid of metaphyscial interpretation.

What is compassion? I think it is a "joined at the hip" twin to guilt. It can only come from superior position. I think it is, more often than not, a "conscience pleaser" so the "ego" can sleep at night. If the truth were known those whom are on the "receiving end" of compassion just as soon not be on the receiving end. Frankly, I think it is a shame compassion even has to exist as it relates to anyone in such a state that compassion be needed. Don't get me wrong, perhaps there are legitimate cause's and in those cases of unexpected phenomenon deemed catastrophic, then there is something beyond compassion that overtakes the human being that is "super natural". That is not "compassion". It is something else. What would you call that?

As far as metaphysical, IMO, what difference does it make. Really. We are sensate, sentient creatures who "feel". Now what that means, whether it is physical or metaphysical I don't think matters. The day we can no longer "shed a tear" is the day the soul dies. How nice it would be if we got a deluge from tears of joy raining on this world. Man, I can get out there, huh? Ha. Smile

I have got to be the most optimistic person in the world. Ha.

William

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@boagie,

Compassion is a social phenomenon that develops very early in childhood and distinguishes us from other primates. We can take for granted (for the sake of this discussion) that there is a neurobiological / psychological basis for it.

But whatever the chemicals and cells involved, compassion is simply the expression of sympathy for another human that comes from recognizing, sharing, and appreciating their hardship.

I don't know why one would bother to put it in metaphysical terms, as if it can somehow exist outside the context of one human's recognition of another.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes,

It is precisely that which is underlined in the metaphysical concept, why are we effected by the pain of another, is there a realization to be had here, why do we feel compassion for an animal, still no realization available? Are we not identifying with, is that not the root of compassion, I say it is, and without identifying with, there is no compassion, and where there is no compassion, there is no morality. Certainly I think this is a little clearer an explanation than yours above.

I suppose the process in not being able to photograph it or measure it, constitutes the metaphysical. What was it Einstein said, imagination is more valueable, then what------? PS: Compassion does not distinguish us from the primates, as it has been found to be a quality of the primate, humanity is just another form of the primate. Now, Schopenhauer takes it a step further when considering the act of self-sacrifice, he says at this point all else falls away, and the single pointed meditation is, that you and the other are one. Certainly the basis of identifing with which evokes compassion, might be an indication of this larger truth.

1 Reply

@alex717,

alex717;30817 wrote:

Then would the moments people are in a state of compassion be some innate human response?

It is not a 'response' at all, it is a state of being, at the moment.

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and when I'd ask you why they would have that,

we do not 'have' that, we 'are' that, at the moment when we are. Perhaps the next moment we are sociopath. Perhaps we are many moments 'compassion'. Only ego imagines that it 'has' something, especially 'compassion' (as it is so antithetical to true 'compassion').

Quote:

you would need to state something metaphysical?

I dunno, have I? The basic nature of existence is 'metaphysical', beyond the 'physical'.

1 Reply

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

If there are no responses to this topic we will have to conclude that it is not possiable to rationally understand compassion, without the aid of metaphyscial interpretation.

I'm hoping that was just a funny way to get people involved with the question.lol.

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@boagie,

boagie;30846 wrote:

why are we effected by the pain of another

Because we see ourselves in other people. If you see someone crying in grief or screaming in pain, it triggers something visceral. (Trust me on this, this is a more or less daily thing for me to see at work). You don't just intellectually understand that someone who has lost a child might be grieved -- you feel something horrible when you see that person grieving. And that dissonance, that discomfort, is something that a compassionate person wants or tries to assuage.

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why do we feel compassion for an animal

Because we anthropomorphize -- and with good reason, because an animal crying in pain is no different than a human crying in pain in terms of our recognition.

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Are we not identifying with, is that not the root of compassion, I say it is

Yes, I agree that the way we recognize and identify with others is central to ALL social interactions and reactions, including altruism and compassion.

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where there is no compassion, there is no morality

I don't know -- moral dictates can be pretty cold and cruel. Of course I guess it depends what you mean by morality. Stoning an adultress to death is moral in certain cultures, but it ain't compassionate.

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I suppose the process in not being able to photograph it or measure it, constitutes the metaphysical.

That makes it abstract, but just because something is abstract doesn't make it metaphysical. And compassion, incidentally, is not that abstract when we can feel it, describe it, and observe it.

Quote:

PS: Compassion does not distinguish us from the primates, as it has been found to be a quality of the primate

And in some respects it's found in nonprimates too. But it's not as socially complicated. Human infants and toddlers have similar rote intelligence to other great apes for the first 1-2 years of life, but have VASTLY more complicated social and linguistic development from infancy. Yes, humanity is an outgrowth of other primates, but that doesn't make it identical.

Quote:

Schopenhauer takes it a step further when considering the act of self-sacrifice, he says at this point all else falls away, and the single pointed meditation is, that you and the other are one. Certainly the basis of identifing with which evokes compassion, might be an indication of this larger truth.

I think we're pretty much in agreement. Our only difference seems to be that I attribute compassion to innate psychosocial development, and I feel that an understanding of compassion needs to happen on this level. I don't think there is more to be gained from abstracting compassion away from the social human mind and discussing it metaphysically like one might discuss the nature of good or the nature of emptiness.

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@nameless,

nameless wrote:

It is not a 'response' at all, it is a state of being, at the moment.

what makes us in that state... Why are we in that state or become in that state, purely random? why does it exist? your just playing on words.... it's an empty theory, i understand where your trying to go though

nameless wrote:

we do not 'have' that, we 'are' that,'.

so instead of saying we have compassion, at the moment we are compassion? we are in the compassion state?

1 Reply

@alex717,

alex717;30862 wrote:

what makes us in that state... Why are we in that state or become in that state, purely random? why does it exist? your just playing on words.... it's an empty theory, i understand where your trying to go though

Actually, if you did understand what I am saying, you wouldn't have asked those questions that you did, nor make your "empty theory" pronouncement. So I'll go with that you haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about.
If you care to make the attempt to understand, just ask for clarification of certain points. I haven't a problem with that. You com in at the end of a foreign film that you haven't a clue as to the meaning and proceed to say that you understand it, judge it, and ask a few questions.
Your pretence at understanding, and your uninformed judgement and juvenile dismissal tell me that I'd be wasting my time answering your questions.
If I'm way off, you might want to rephrase your questions.

Quote:

so instead of saying we have compassion, at the moment we are compassion? we are in the compassion state?

It is who/what we are, at that particular quantumly discrete moment.
It is our 'nature', at the moment.

1 Reply

@alex717,

alex717 wrote:

Is that proven? No....

Can you show many good cases of compassion in ancient or even medieval history..apart from family concerns or tribal loyalties its has been seldom expressed...The ones i do recall are significant to need the recalling.... in the main little or no mention of compassion is ever mentioned..

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@nameless,

nameless wrote:

Actually, if you did understand what I am saying, you wouldn't have asked those questions that you did, nor make your "empty theory" pronouncement. So I'll go with that you haven't a clue as to what I'm talking about.
If you care to make the attempt to understand, just ask for clarification of certain points. I haven't a problem with that. You com in at the end of a foreign film that you haven't a clue as to the meaning and proceed to say that you understand it, judge it, and ask a few questions.
Your pretence at understanding, and your uninformed judgement and juvenile dismissal tell me that I'd be wasting my time answering your questions.
If I'm way off, you might want to rephrase your questions.

It is who/what we are, at that particular quantumly discrete moment.
It is our 'nature', at the moment.

I was just trying to confirm. What makes the quantum moment's nature and why is it our nature? Why are their quantum moments? If there are moments and your dismissing cause and effect then what simulation exists? I wasn't trying to attack you with you theory by saying it's empty, IMO it is.

1 Reply

@alex717,

alex717;30896 wrote:

What makes the quantum moment's nature

Question unclear. The 'nature' of the moment is it's existence, it's qualities. The 'nature' of a radio is it's radiolike qualities.

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and why is it our nature?

We are one and the same with the existence (the 'universe') perceived.

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Why are their quantum moments?

There is no 'why'. That is the structure of existence.
Like the static 'frames' of a movie ('movie moments'), that must be perceived in a certain way, from a certain Perspective, to appear as actual 'motion' is happening on the screen.

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If there are moments and your dismissing cause and effect then what simulation exists?

Saying that things have a 'causal' relationship is an obsolete and clumsy way of saying that they are mutually (synchronously) arising features of the same event. Non-linear. Every moment of existence, ever, happens simultaneously, in one moment, Now!

1 Reply

@nameless,

nameless wrote:

There is no 'why'. That is the structure of existence.
Like the static 'frames' of a movie ('movie moments'), that must be perceived in a certain way, from a certain Perspective, to appear as actual 'motion' is happening on the screen.

This is an assumption, which is or progresses to be metaphysical. Am I wrong?

1 Reply

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Can compassion be explain without resorting to metaphysics, identifing the cause and effect, both of which one can tangiably identify and understood. I suspect the answer is no, what are your thoughts on the matter. If there are no responses to this topic we will have to conclude that it is not possiable to rationally understand compassion, without the aid of metaphyscial interpretation.

Without any research on what I don't already have in my head[1], I'd like to chime in on this.

Compassion exists chiefly due to the existence of the with empathy.
Empathy, the mental behavior of 'projecting' oneself into the situation (or feelings) of another only exists in those cases where we feel some sort of identification, affection, connection or protection for that 'other'.
These root conditions (ident, affection, connection or protection) come from relationships - or perceived relationships - with others.

My belief is that where these relational conditions exists determine whether or not a general aura of compassion exists (through ones' behavior).

Identification: The other is seen as 'like us', or sharing in some perceived commonality
Affection: Emotional desire to reach out and touch - verbally or physically - in that state that wants to 'connect' or experience emotional, intellectual or physical intimacy
Connection: Like identification, I see this basis as being that condition where there is a perceived symbiosis (actual, perceived, practical or otherwise) with the other.
Protection: When the self feels the need to 'keep safe', on any level, the interests of the other.

These basis - I believe - grow out of various conditions of the human animal on a social/relationship level. Humanity has only survived as a result of the learned behavior of living and interacting with each other (the lone human becomes dinner; a zip-lock filled with jelly and toothpicks - weak and exposed).

At the risk of sounding far too pompous, I'd like to give a personal example; when I was very young, I felt a close identification with the people with whom I lived: my friends, family, my buddies and girlfriends. Much later, as I was in the military with a young family, those two had the bulk of my allegiance. I think it's this way with everyone[2]. Many people are racists; extolling those of their ethnic background as the only ones worthy of these connections[3]. In any case, after much toiling in discovering my own philosophy, I've made a conscious decision to embrace humans, as a species and in their lonely, autonomous condition, as "what I too am". Many others, I'm sure, have come to this place too. I'm sure I've a long way to go and am far from perfectly, consistently-compassionate. But be that as it may...

... and it's only when one's come full circle in this that they too will embrace everyone.

Dang that's a long post; #&*@!... I did it again. Sorry. Thanks for your patience.

~~~~~~~~~~
[1] Which may not be such a good idea
[2] In that the classifications of people with whom we experience compassion change throughout our lives as our priority and experiences change.
[3] Other examples of negative identifications: Nationalists (too close with countrymen, too distant from those who are not), Homophobics (disproportionate identification with those of same sexual orientation combined with mental 'behavior projection' on those who are not), Political, Religious... and the list goes on and on.

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The Nature Of Compassion

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