Why can't we be more like Finland?

@Pythagorean,

There's two sides to every story.

Quote:

Finnish senior citizens are well cared for.

Ask any Finn and they would disagree. In Finland a certain monthly procent of people's wages are automatically taken and put into a fund. When you retire, you get a certain amount each month (how much depends on how many years you've worked and thus how much you've payed in to the fund). The problem is, people live longer than they "should" so cost more than they've payed in. And, in the 1940's to 50's there was a huge baby boom, and they're getting up to retirement age: http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=FI&out=s&ymax=250
In other words, the money's going to run out in a very near future. So everyone's running about like startled rabbits but no one knows what to do about it.

Quote:

Unemployment benefits are good and last, in one form or another, indefinitely.

Which is good because many people are out of work indefinitely. Because of the strict laws about protection for employees, you aren't allowed to fire someone without a really, really good reason. Like if sbdy is drunk at work often, you've paid for the person to go through rehab, but there wasn't any improvement. So you can't fire someone just for being lazy and only doing the bare minimum, or if they aren't good at their job. This means that employers only hire if they're sure that the person is someone they want to keep until they retire... which means a lot of people just don't get hired.

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It's ethnically ... homogeneous.

At the same time that the fewest number of people apply for asylum in Finland, the smallest procent of these are accepted. Last year, as you can see from this link: http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_vaesto_en.html#Asylumseekers
38 of the 2324 that applied were granted asylum. There have been many stories in the media about immigrants who weren't costing Finland anything, had a job, knew Finnish etc. yet after living here several years were kicked out of the country. And yet politicians state the need of foreign labor because of the many who will be going into retirement.

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Theirs is the only country in Europe that has never had a king or a homegrown aristocracy.

Actually, Finland had a king for exactly 2 months, Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse. He was German which caused problems as just about that time Germany lost WWI, and Finland thought it might be a bad idea to have a German king. So the king resigned and Finland decided to avoid such problems by having a president Wink

Quote:

Finland has no private schools

Yes it does, although the tuition can't be higher than a certain amount and they have to atleast partly follow the same "plan of learning" as other schools.

In the US, personal freedom and individualism are valued while in Finland it's independence and equality. Thinking outside the box isn't encouraged, almost feared. If you have problems: keep them to yourself. If you see an improvement that could be made: this is the way we've done for years and it's worked so far. This can be very frustrating at times.

Not trying to say the US is better than Finland though, just saying no place is perfect.

1 Reply

@finlandssvensk,

Christa,

You are impressively well informed! I myself don't agree with that author's point of view, but there are many in America who would agree with it.

Christa, you said that every Finn is aware of these problems but I wonder furthermore if everyone in Finland, or Europe in general, is so well informed or conscious regarding what some in America are calling their inevitable decline - the decline of their country(ies)? What is the opinion of the average Finn concerning this issue of general civilizational retreat on the part of Europeans as represented in those demographic tables? Are they in denial on this point of general decline, or what? I would be curious to get some feedback on this. Here is the article that first got me interested in this subject: "It's the Demography, Stupid" by Mark Stein. In the article the author states that the Europeans are not reproducing sufficiently enough and that they are heading for extinction. Also here is a brief article which explains the same phenomenon from a more philosophical perspective: Why Europe chooses extinction

I would love to be so naughty as to e-mail a copy of your post to Robert G. Kaiser and his crazy liberal buddies at the Washington Post to see what their response would be (only with your permission of course).

(By the way, please see this related article from the May edition of Commentary magazine: Can France Be Saved? by Michel Gurfinkiel. Here's an excerpt: "The country's [France] social, economic, and demographic crisis grows deeper by the day; a new president is unlikely to resolve or perhaps even to address it.")

I would hasten to add that I, like you, don't see the U.S. as being necessarily better than Finland. For one thing we have a very large portion of our population in prison. There is generally speaking far too much violence here. Also important, the unrestrained consumerism and commercialism which is eating away at the culture like a kind of cancer. The U.S. is also in decline of sorts, but it is being discussed at least in certain political circles.

All politics aside though, I really do wonder what your own opinions are regarding the deeper reasons for the apparently impending decline. For instance, do you believe that it is related only to narcissism and self-indulgence or are there other factors to consider?

Obviously I still have a lot to learn about current-day Europe (and Finland). Any feedback that you could give would be most appreciated. Thanks.

--Pythagorean

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

I'm well informed because I live in Finland, before we moved here I hardly even knew where it was! Very Happy

The problems I wrote of are well known here and there are debates about "what to do", but no one has any answer...

I have to admit I didn't really understand what you meant with this "inevitable decline", would you mind explaining? The first article I couldn't read as you have to have an account, and the second just said that there was a problem and then continued to speak of Christianity in the middle ages :confused:

Pythagorean wrote:

I would love to be so naughty as to e-mail a copy of your post to Robert G. Kaiser and his crazy liberal buddies at the Washington Post to see what their response would be (only with your permission of course).

Please do! Let me know what comes of it!

1 Reply

@finlandssvensk,

Christa, I am real sorry about that link but I found the same article elsewhere. Here it is: http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

The gist of European decline is, as you have already mentioned, that the population is shrinking so dramatically and the life-span of the old is growing longer and so they will end up going bankrupt.

--Pythagorean

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

Pythagorean wrote:

The gist of European decline is, as you have already mentioned, that the population is shrinking so dramatically and the life-span of the old is growing longer and so they will end up going bankrupt.

Now I know what you mean, so I'll try to answer your questions.

Pythagorean wrote:

I wonder furthermore if everyone in Finland, or Europe in general, is so well informed or conscious regarding what some in America are calling their inevitable decline - the decline of their country(ies)? What is the opinion of the average Finn concerning this issue of general civilizational retreat on the part of Europeans as represented in those demographic tables? Are they in denial on this point of general decline, or what?

I'm can't really speak for the "average Finn" here (if there is such a thing) but my opinion on this is that people are making a big fuss of it. There have been who knows how many "doomsday predictions" before and I can't think of any that actually happened. Now you can call me in denial, but I prefer to call it not panicing Wink

I also don't really understand what the big deal is. Maybe Europe will be underpopulated, not able to support itself, immigrants swarm in etc., but what's wrong with that? Societies change. Why do we want to keep the western world as it is? In ways, Europe is stagnating and change would be good for it, in my opinion. Of course history, social science etc are not my strong point...

Pythagorean wrote:

All politics aside though, I really do wonder what your own opinions are regarding the deeper reasons for the apparently impending decline. For instance, do you believe that it is related only to narcissism and self-indulgence or are there other factors to consider?

As for the reasons, I would add "taking the easy way out" (laziness) to the list, that is just looking away. "I don't have to worry about this right now." Of course, that's probably exactly what I'm doing too.

1 Reply

@finlandssvensk,

Christa,

Thanks for your honest and refreshing feedback!

Christa wrote:

I also don't really understand what the big deal is. Maybe Europe will be underpopulated, not able to support itself, immigrants swarm in etc., but what's wrong with that? Societies change. Why do we want to keep the western world as it is? In ways, Europe is stagnating and change would be good for it, in my opinion. Of course history, social science etc are not my strong point...

I would simply respond by saying that there can be at least two types of change: good and bad. Change is a constant and will happen in any event, but decline is a very special occurrence. Decline is usually associated with bad things. It may be too late for the Europeans to successfully accept immigrants. If Europe had begun to accept immigrants much earlier then the immigrants may have been able to help sustain the peace, and sustain the progress of industrial/technological output. But it may be too late - decline might be such that peace and progress will suffer catastrophic reversals. Decline is usually associated with a rise in violence and poverty. If true, is this acceptable?

I have to admit I myself have become a little obsessed with the topic of western decline. I am deeply interested in western history.

One of the other reasons why I'm interested in the decline of the west is because I see so many people around me acting, for lack of a better word, aimlessly. They seem to posess no real reason, or justification for their existence. Whereas I have always believed that some kind of meaning or high purpose in life was necessary. So the recognition of social decadence and decline has helped me to understand the behaviour of people.

I ask you Christa, how else can you explain the wide-spread cultural obsession with disgusting and pointless behaviour except in the context of decline? Subnormal behaviour is hugely popular in America.

I would like to also add that in America the media intentionally try to shock the people with disgraceful and demoralizing videos and stories, of which there seems to be an endless supply. The media knows that the sicker the programs that they show the more viewers they will get and the more advertising money they will earn. The abusive media act contrary to psychological well-being. Did I mention that the prisons are overflowing here? The media has a definite negative influence upon the masses of people. The media has no shame as they also openly promote a strong hatred of America -and on this they have succeeded wildly. Selling a hatred of America is now big business here. We seem to be caught in a serious downward spiral, in my opinion.

I also think that the west has become collectively misanthropic, at best; genuine humanism is dead. The people's obsession with money, sex, cultural self-guilt, their toleration (or total ignorance) of injustice and inhumane behaviour, seems to be growing every day -to alarming proportions. Many have lost pride in America. Authentic morality used to be the guarantor of authentic freedom, but now morality is being replaced with laws which govern and force the "correct" human thoughts.

I actually believe that "doomsday" has already arrived in a sense, but few are conscious of its existence, since such self-awareness would interfere with the ecstatic nature of the decadence. Now I'm just waiting for the final curtain, which I guess will be financial collapse and bankruptcy...followed by war(?).

Christa wrote:

As for the reasons, I would add "taking the easy way out" (laziness) to the list, that is just looking away. "I don't have to worry about this right now." Of course, that's probably exactly what I'm doing too.

That is no doubt one of the reasons, but as to your own position, with all due respect, the easy way out may not be the most intellectually rewarding, in my humble opinion. Speaking for myself, the more I confront this topic of western decline the richer my understanding of current affairs, culture, history and politics seems to become and the more powerful and useful is the knowledge gained. In a strange way I look forward to the continuing decadence and societal implosion, because it constitutes the reality of historical conditions as I see it -a reality that, as it grows darker and more ominous, serves to strengthen and enlighten me.

Anyway, I hope you will tolerate my ranting, Christa. By the way, you said that the social sciences etc. are not your strong point, but I would like to know if you are at all interested in history? Just curious. Thanks--

--Pythagorean

-------------------------------------------------------------------[INDENT]How is one to live a moral and compassionate existence when one is fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in life, when one finds darkness not only in one's culture but within oneself? If there is a stage at which an individual life becomes truly adult, it must be when one grasps the irony in its unfolding and accepts responsibility for a life lived in the midst of such paradox. One must live in the middle of contradiction, because if all contradiction were eliminated at once life would collapse. There are simply no answers to some of the great pressing questions. You continue to live them out, making your life a worthy expression of leaning into the light.[/INDENT][INDENT]--Barry Lopez[/INDENT]

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

As for a political/economical decline, I don't know enough about those kinds of things to say. But I agree as you mentioned that there seems to be a serious moral decline. Why? Is it because we have everything we need and just don't know what to do with ourselves? Before people had to physically work to survive, now many people (at least here) survive without working at all. And what can we do about it? I mean, in the case of the environment being trashed then we can recycle, save energy etc., but what can we do to counteract this? I don't know.

Pythagorean wrote:

By the way, you said that the social sciences etc. are not your strong point, but I would like to know if you are at all interested in history? Just curious. Thanks--

I can be interested if someone interesting is telling about it. But I even try not to be interested in it because it's one of the few things I'm not interested in so far. And if I'm interested in something then I tend to put pressure on myself to be knowlegable in the area etc... I don't know if I'm explaining this well... but basically I refuse to try to be good at everything.

1 Reply

@finlandssvensk,

Christa wrote:

As for a political/economical decline, I don't know enough about those kinds of things to say. But I agree as you mentioned that there seems to be a serious moral decline. Why? Is it because we have everything we need and just don't know what to do with ourselves? Before people had to physically work to survive, now many people (at least here) survive without working at all. And what can we do about it? I mean, in the case of the environment being trashed then we can recycle, save energy etc., but what can we do to counteract this? I don't know.

Christa, thanks for providing me with your insights. The material success of western nations is a crucial factor.

I don't know of anyone who knows what to do to counteract this worsening of morality. Some conservative intellectuals in America, however, are putting forth the proposition that Christianity will "save" the west, since Christians tend to have more children than others (and this is true), and also Christians are supposed to have higher morals. But I see this as highly unlikely. Return to Christianity may be a solution theoretically, but it will never happen. Genuine Christianity, or what's left of it, is in decline here. I mean the basic tenets, the essence of Christian religous practises and their primitive meanings, have become completely impractical and irrelevant to so many people. Pop culture has totally drown it out. I would say bluntly that pornography is more popular than Jesus -that's my opinon. But the larger issue that they raise is that only some kind of spiritual, or religous revival can save us from such decadence as our great wealth and leisure have engendered. You see, they are literally praying for divine intervention to save the country. But I'm afraid that 'God' is really dead this time.

One thing that I do, as I have said before, is try to discover and trace the obvious symptoms or trends of moral decline, as I try to make some use, some value of it, to turn the pathology of decadence into knowledge and understanding. The encounter with all of the madness and immorality serves to stimulate me.

In this light I would be very interested in what you mean when you say that you too see the serious decline in morality. What do you see? Can you describe some examples?

Christa wrote:

I can be interested if someone interesting is telling about it. But I even try not to be interested in it because it's one of the few things I'm not interested in so far. And if I'm interested in something then I tend to put pressure on myself to be knowlegable in the area etc... I don't know if I'm explaining this well... but basically I refuse to try to be good at everything.

You explain it well -! You're a perfectionist, that's cool:). But your point is well taken, it really does seem necessary to ignore many things in order to know many things...that is, we need to focus to learn and focus means narrowing things down.

Christa, may I ask you, what does interest you so far? I mean, what subjects? Are there any philosophers in particular that you're interested in? --Just curious. I really love the Greeks myself. I also really hate American analytical philosophy (I have sound philosophical reasons for this!).

Smile

-Pythagorean

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

Pythagorean wrote:

...and also Christians are supposed to have higher morals.

Empirically, they don't tend to have much higher morals than average. But maybe better not to start on this... Wink

Pythagorean wrote:

In this light I would be very interested in what you mean when you say that you too see the serious decline in morality. What do you see? Can you describe some examples?

Well, off the top of my head, there is more senseless crime. 40 years ago, at least in Finland, you didn't have to i.e. lock your bike when you went to town, and now you do. I left my bike at the train station for a week (smart Wink

) and even though it was locked, some kids smashed it up pretty bad. I like about Finland that it's still pretty safe. We live in a smaller town about 40 min from Helsinki, and as we have 5 doors ( !! the person who designed the house must have had a passion for doors) we can never lock them all. Even our cars aren't locked. ( Very Happy

Now everyone's probably going to look up where I live and steal our stuff )

Pythagorean wrote:

Christa, may I ask you, what does interest you so far? I mean, what subjects? Are there any philosophers in particular that you're interested in? --Just curious. I really love the Greeks myself. I also really hate American analytical philosophy (I have sound philosophical reasons for this!).

School subjects I like (no order): psychology, philosophy, biology, math, languages, etc. Physics and chemestry are ok. Sociology sounds interesting but we don't have the option to study it. As for philosophy, I don't really have favorites/dislikes yet. I've only had two classes = 60h philosophy and the same amount ethics (you have to choose to either have ethics or religion in school).

1 Reply

@finlandssvensk,

Christa wrote:

I like about Finland that it's still pretty safe. We live in a smaller town about 40 min from Helsinki, and as we have 5 doors ( !! the person who designed the house must have had a passion for doors) we can never lock them all. Even our cars aren't locked. ( Now everyone's probably going to look up where I live and steal our stuff )

That's a lot of doors! Finland sounds like a nice place. I have heard that the sun shines all night in the summer and it's dark all day in the height of winter there due to the high lattitudes. Is that true? Do you see the Northern Lights, or what?

I've never been outside of North America. But if I did travel abroad I would definitely go, at least, to somewhere in Europe. My father was born in Athens, Greece, I would really like to go there.

I live in a small and quiet town in Massachusetts, (near the historic towns of Concord and Lexington) where there is very little in the way of crime. People here do leave their doors unlocked and their expensive equipment outside. It's a pretty safe area and the police forces are top-notch. But as far as most of the big cities of America, they are rather dangerous places, in my estimation.

Christa wrote:

School subjects I like (no order): psychology, philosophy, biology, math, languages, etc. Physics and chemestry are ok. Sociology sounds interesting but we don't have the option to study it. As for philosophy, I don't really have favorites/dislikes yet. I've only had two classes = 60h philosophy and the same amount ethics (you have to choose to either have ethics or religion in school).

I wish well for you in your studies at school, Christa! I have a feeling that you will do very well indeed:). It sounds like you're in a good school. I am trying to acquire some better language skills myself. I bought a set of excellent books on Greek and Latin and am just in the process of working my way through them. I think English is a beautiful language. I would also love to be able to read Homer and Aeschylus in the Greek!

By the way, do you read books in English, or only in Finnish?
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As for my favourite subjects, philosophy would have to be first on the list. Then, probably history, followed closely by politics and current events/popular culture. I read mostly non-fiction books.

Hey Christa, I'm curious, what about movies? I mean, do you get to watch many American movies? Do you have any favourites? I have to admit it, I really love movies! I have a whole lot of favourites but they are mostly obscure. I have actually been planning to write up a list of my favourite philosophically oriented movies and make reviews/notes to each one and post it here in the forums...

Forgive my rambling, but I haven't slept in a while and I'm a little discombobulated right about now -:confused:

[CENTER] Smile

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[RIGHT] Smile

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--Pythagorean

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

Pythagorean wrote:

Finland sounds like a nice place. I have heard that the sun shines all night in the summer and it's dark all day in the height of winter there due to the high lattitudes. Is that true? Do you see the Northern Lights, or what?

That is officially true above the artic circle, that is in the top third of Finland. However, even here about 10 hours south the sun is only up maybe between 10am and 4pm in the winter, and it only gets dark for a few hours in the night in the summer. I have seen the northern lights once, but it's not common to see them so far south and especially in the city where the light pollution blocks it out. Helsinki is at the same lattitude as Juneau Alaska (forgive my spelling Wink

I think it's wrong).

Pythagorean wrote:

I bought a set of excellent books on Greek and Latin and am just in the process of working my way through them.

I had a short latin class and loved it! I've forgotten about everything though... so it goes.

Pythagorean wrote:

By the way, do you read books in English, or only in Finnish?

I'm only learning Finnish, so don't read anything in that language. I go to a Swedish school (a small minority of Finns have Swedish as a mother tongue) and so read a lot in Swedish. To generalize, I read fiction in English and non-fiction in Swedish.

Pythagorean wrote:

Hey Christa, I'm curious, what about movies? I mean, do you get to watch many American movies? Do you have any favourites?

I don't watch movies almost at all, we don't even have a TV. Instead I devour books at an enormous rate :p

1 Reply

@finlandssvensk,

finlandssvensk wrote:

I'm only learning Finnish, so don't read anything in that language. I go to a Swedish school (a small minority of Finns have Swedish as a mother tongue) and so read a lot in Swedish. To generalize, I read fiction in English and non-fiction in Swedish.

Oh, o.k. Finlandssvensk = someone who speaks Sweedish and lives in Finland - I think I got it now!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Swedish-speaking_Finns#The_problem_with_the_term_.22Swedish-speaking_Finn.22

Christa wrote:

I don't watch movies almost at all, we don't even have a TV. Instead I devour books at an enormous rate :p

Aaaahh, now I know your secret to how you're so smart! Are you also a vegetarian, or only eat books Very Happy

-?

Be well Smile

--Pythagorean

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

Pythagorean wrote:

Aaaahh, now I know your secret to how you're so smart! Are you also a vegetarian, or only eat books -?

Just books Wink

I eat all foods but fish - I don't know why but I just hate the taste of fish. We have fish in some form or another once a week at school... :/

We don't have a tv mostly because we think there's more positive than negative in having one - there's some good things with it but more bad.

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Why can't we be more like Finland?

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