I don't understand how this car works.

@sirclicksalot,

Quote:

has nothing to do with the wheel-driven cart propeller rotor

And the only source of power to the wheel driven cart above wind speed is the Kinetic energy of that cart.

Assuming that the cart is as given and there is no other power sources hidden somewhere on it that is.

That is why only the shown ability of others to build such a craft and get the same results will lay this matter completely to rest.

1 Reply

@sirclicksalot,

Quote:

Yes or no: the thrust from an airplane propeller can push a plane downwind while the plane body is flying directly downwind faster than the wind. A yes resolves your earlier stated concern, a no contradicts a significant fraction of thousands of daily commercial and private flights

After dumping five gallons of gasoline into the tank above my seat the 35 horse power engine of my ultralight was indeed able to fly the MX ultralight craft downwind faster then the wind as long as the wind was not over 45 MPH and if I did shut off the engine and traded height for speed I could even do it for a short time without an engine.

Not any of the above however explain how a wind power only craft can go downwind directly in steady state mode faster then the wind!!!!!!!!!

1 Reply

>>"You are claiming that a sailboat can also go downwind directly and go faster then the wind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
.
No - YOU are claiming that. We have pointed out repeatedly that a sailboat must tack to beat the wind. Why must you lie? And why do you refuse to tell us what language you're most comfortable with?

1 Reply

@spork,

Quote:

Do you find it at all peculiar that everyone else seems to be getting it gradually?

Sorry unlike some others here who had folded I am never concern about the opinions of the herd if it happen to disagree with the laws of nature or commonsense.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

After dumping five gallons of gasoline into the tank above my seat the 35 horse power engine of my ultralight was indeed able to fly the MX ultralight craft downwind faster then the wind

Progress; excellent!

Although you don't yet believe there could be energy available to run the cart propeller without an on-board engine, you must at least agree in principle that the cart-relative windspeed is no longer one of your oft-stated concerns:

Quote:

You can not get energy from a wind who speed is zero as far as the car is concern.

and

Quote:

the force is zero when the relative wind velocity is zero so no need to work a F*D equation as that would also be zero.

Yes or no: so, hypothetically,

if a physically valid and plausible source for the force and energy to run the propeller, fast enough to provide thrust, could be found and explained in the interaction between the ground-relative moving wind and the cart mechanism, at a cart speed that meets or exceeds windspeed,

then logic suggests, nay, demands, that you would agree in principle that it is possible for the cart to do DDWFTTW steady-state, correct?

Don't say (for the 187th time) that there can't be such sources, just say whether the hypothetical if clause above would change your mind about the conceptual possibility of cart operation and claimed performance.

1 Reply

@spork,

Quote:

No - YOU are claiming that. We have pointed out repeatedly that a sailboat must tack to beat the wind. Why must you lie?

Sorry you are the ones bringing up over and over again the fact that a sailboat can go faster then the wind and as that have zero to do with your wind car I can only wonder way. Along with power planes, abilities to fly faster downwind then the wind also having nothing to do with the subject at hand.

In fact, your group members seem to be showing similarities to con men trying to sell a pyramid investment.

Let see how can you dare to think this is a bad investment when x and y and z had invested money in it? Are you not going to feel dumb when they walk away with all that money?

When ask for details on how you can get 300 percent returns on the funds they wave their hands in the air.

And when you tell them that they are just waving their hands in the air they reply that unlike x and y an z you just not as bright as they are or you would understand the simple concepts that allow all of you to get rich.

Sorry but none of you had behaved in a manner of people who are just waiting for the proof to come in and are relax about the manner.

Beside the plain physics involved your group behaviors in and of itself had raised red flags.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

Quote:
has nothing to do with the wheel-driven cart propeller rotor

[A] And the only source of power to the wheel driven cart above wind speed is the Kinetic energy of that cart.

Rats, progress lost. [A] is inaccurate on two counts:

1) the kinetic energy is already within thethermodynamic boundary of the cart, so it can't be a source.

2) There is also energy in the wind relative to the ground (not to the cart); you do still agree there is energy there, even if you doubt the cart's ability to extract it? When your ultralight is moving at steady state downwind at 30kt over the ground and at 20kt of airspeed in a 10kt wind, the first (or last) 10knots-worth of the craft's kinetic energy wrt the ground is being provided by the wind, not the engine. This can be proved by your lower rate of steady-state fuel consumption in the downwind case at 20kt airspeed in at 10kt wind compared to the case where you are moving at 30kt wrt the ground, and to the air, in a calm.

Quote:

[ B]Assuming that the cart is as given and there is no other power sources hidden somewhere on it that is.

of course, what would be the point? But there is still energy there, right?

Quote:

[C]That is why only the shown ability of others to build such a craft and get the same results will lay this matter completely to rest.

[C] indicates if this can be demonstrated (which it has, multiple times in multiple ways over the past four decades), so [C] flatly contradicts the absolute certainty of [A] plus condition [ B], so in [C] you at least admit the possibility that the cart works.

1 Reply

@sirclicksalot,

Quote:

you must at least agree in principle that the cart-relative windspeed is no longer one of your oft-stated concerns:

If you got another power source onboard then it is not a concern however if the wind is the only power source with no storage of power it is the main and only concern for that matter.

1 Reply

@sirclicksalot,

Quote:

the kinetic energy is already within thethermodynamic boundary of the cart, so it can't be a source.

What does thermodynamic have to do with e=(1/2 )mv^2? Once more your statement on it face seem sense free.

Now as far as my ultralight engine is concern I am demanding the energy to fly at X amount of air speed at level flight and if I happen to run into a tall building then the total energy of impact would indeed be 1/2(Vairspeed + Vwindspeed)^2*mass. Or to say it another way it would be my ground speed not my airspeed that matter.

With a footnote that speed and velocity is one and the same in the simple case we had been talking about with a direct downwind path but otherwise it would not be.

3 Replies

@BillRM,

Ha, ha Definetly no QCar

0 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

When ask for details on how you can get 300 percent returns on the funds they wave their hands in the air.

1) If you are speaking literally, no one is promising return on monetary investment here, though it would be nice.

2) If you are speaking metaphorically and money is actually energy, none of the explanations you characterize as "hand waving" violate any thermodynamic or physical laws.

2.1) If you are speaking metaphorically and money is actually velocity, know that there is no such physical law as Conservation of Velocity. Gears, levers and a host of other devices would relegate any such construct to the trash.

3) Your attempts at debate are simply "it won't work so it won't work;" you have yet to cogently discredit a single discrete point made by others. For you to characterize the various explanations as hand waving, when that is apparently all you have yourself, while you refuse to deal with or refute them in a cogent manner is rude and wrong.

Many explanations employ analogies; analogy helps the medicine go down by demonstrating a principle works in real life. For example, you attempted to use the analogy of a turbine rotor anemometer on top of a moving car in the wind. Your analogy was not germane to the discussion (the rotor was not connected via a drive train to the wheels and the ground). But it was an analogy nonetheless, and provided we "the True Believers" an opportunity to make the point that the rotor blades operate as a propeller, not a turbine (for about the 10^4 time).

No one is claiming that fixed-sail craft, like sailboats, can sail DDWFTTW. But they can make Vmg to leeward (velocity made good - i.e. velocity component - in the downwind direction) greater than the true windspeed i.e. by tacking downwind some high-performance sail craft can beat a theoretical balloon, travelling with the wind at windspeed, between two marks. This has been known for decades if not centuries. Fixed-sail craft are not DDWFTTW carts, but they do have some similarities with - i.e. are in some respects analogous to - the carts. If you would listen a bit further you might understand the analogy and take one step closer to Enlightenment.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Quote:
you must at least agree in principle that the cart-relative windspeed is no longer one of your oft-stated concerns:

If you got another power source onboard then it is not a concern however if the wind is the only power source with no storage of power it is the main and only concern for that matter.

Yes or no: there is energy available in the differential velocity between the wind and the ground. I am not asking if you know how to extract it, or about between the wind and a moving cart, just whether an energy potential exists between the wind and the ground.

2 Replies

@sirclicksalot,

This argument in isolation is never going to convince Bill. Yes, there is energy available in the differential velocity, but the act of extracting that energy slows the car down. If the air was still and you rolled the car down a hill to get it started, you would not be able to extract the energy from the differential velocity to keep the car moving. What he's not agreeing to is that the sacrifice in speed you take in harnessing the relative velocity difference is more than made up by being able to harvast energy from the air moving along with the car.

0 Replies

>>"In fact, your group members seem to be showing similarities to con men trying to sell a pyramid investment."
.
You just keep on comparing us to con men trying to bilk people out of their money. Have you not yet noticed that we have never asked anyone for a nickel? This would be the worst con in history.
You also claim we're "hand waving" because you're simply unable to follow our explanations. Was Einstein "hand waving" when he described time dilation - because you couldn't follow?
And why do you refuse to tell me what your native language is? That's just bizarre.

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>>"If the air was still and you rolled the car down a hill to get it started, you would not be able to extract the energy from the differential velocity to keep the car moving"
.
If the air was still there would be no differential velocity. The differential is between air and ground. That's clearly a sticking point for Bill. But I can tell you from experience, the real sticking point is that Bill has already made up his mind. The rest has to be taken for entertainment value only. Hopes of getting him to understand will only result in frustration.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

What does thermodynamic have to do with e=(1/2 )mv^2? Once more your statement on it face seem sense free.

Thermodynamics is about energy and e=(1/2)mv^2 is a form of energy. The entire exercise is a thermodynamic exercise. Drawing a correct thermodynamic "box" around the cart and accounting for all energy inputs, outputs, accumulations and losses is one of the most rigorous ways to evaluate statements about the cart. Thermodynamics allows us to evaluate whether statements about the cart energy are free instead of whether they just seem free.

To someone that understands thermodynamics, the following diagram demonstrates that there need be no free lunch for the DDWFTTW cart:

Code:



___Wind at 10kt___

      |

      |

      O->losses (drag, friction)

      |

      |

______V______

Ground at 0kt

The details of extracting the energy are not explained, but the diagram clearly indicates to the cognoscenti that the cart obeys energy conservation laws.

0 Replies

TEACH and REACH out 2 Cents

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@BillRM,

Hey Bill, two side queries:

1) Do you agree a cart with a turbine on it driving the wheels could move directly upwind?

2) Could such a cart go faster wrt the ground than the ground-relative windspeed, steady state i.e. could it see an apparent wind greater than twice the true windspeed?

1 Reply

@sirclicksalot,

Quote:

Yes or no: there is energy available in the differential velocity between the wind and the ground. I am not asking if you know how to extract it, or about between the wind and a moving cart, just whether an energy potential exists between the wind and the ground.

The wind blowing over the ground does indeed subject non-moving objects attached to the ground to the full forces/pressures of the wind and if you place a windmill or such a device attached to the ground you can indeed extract energy.

Now place that same windmill on a flat bed truck moving at the same velocity as the local wind and you would get zero energy from that windmill.

Decrease the velocity of the truck to some fraction of the wind velocity and you will once more be getting some part the wind energy.

Increase the truck velocity to over the wind velocity and you will be getting energy from the windmill but now not from the wind but from the truck engine instead

No one had imply that your wind cart can not take energy from the wind at below wind velocity but you are claiming that you can do so at or over wind velocity.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

Now place that same windmill on a flat bed truck moving at the same velocity as the local wind and you would get zero energy from that windmill.

This is not true, because the windmill will still transform part of the wind which hits it's wings into rotational velocity... just like a tacking boat does.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

I don't understand how this car works.

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