I don't understand how this car works.

@BillRM,

If you wish to know you can -- simply go to the project blog: Edit [Moderator]: Link removed Scroll down to my bio (in the first few posts of the blog), my employer is listed. Call the number on that companies website, ask for me and I'll answer and read your post back to you to prove it.

Now, I'm not inclined to think it really matters that much to you, but IF it did (or does) you can have the phone next to this keyboard ringing in 5 minutes or less.

JB

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@ThinAirDesigns,

Quote:

not. We are extracting energy from the relative motion between the air and the ground*

Damn good trick now give us all the mathematic or a link to a paper that contain the mathematic.

Are you using a wind Maxwell's demon?

2 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
not. We are extracting energy from the relative motion between the air and the ground*

Damn good trick now give us all the mathematic or a link to a paper that contain the mathematic.

Are you using a wind Maxwell's demon?

He already provided links to the math -

http://able2know.org/topic/145626-10#post-4009498

Cycloptichorn

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@ThinAirDesigns,

Quote:

Now, we can talk about where the energy comes from to power that propeller to smack the air, but if you are wondering how we take air that is already moving slower than we are and slow it down even more --- that's how.

God the Dean Drive make more sense then what you are saying how about the math?

2 Replies

@BillRM,

ThinAirDesigns" wrote:

We are extracting energy from the relative motion between the air and the ground

BillRM wrote:

Damn good trick ...

And a rather common one you should add. Every wind powered device extracts energy from such relative motion -- be it on water, land or ice.

BillRM wrote:

... now give us all the mathematic or a link to a paper that contain the mathematic.

Perhaps you missed where I did exactly that -- only a few posts back.

JB

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Now, we can talk about where the energy comes from to power that propeller to smack the air, but if you are wondering how we take air that is already moving slower than we are and slow it down even more --- that's how.

God the Dean Drive make more sense then what you are saying how about the math?

You're being pretty ******* rude Bill, try having some courtesy.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@ThinAirDesigns,

Not common at all.

Generally, wind-powered devices extract energy from the relative motion between the device itself and the wind.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

God the Dean Drive make more sense then what you are saying how about the math?

That statement is followed by a question mark -- not sure what to do with it.

JB

1 Reply

@ThinAirDesigns,

Bill is not a native English speaker, so sometimes some interpretation is necessary.

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@ThinAirDesigns,

ThinAirDesigns wrote:

Let it be known right off the bat that I have no problem whatsoever with skeptics like DrewDad. He has given me no reason whatsoever to this point believe that he doesn't have an open mind.

JB

Skepticism is good. Denialism is bad.

I believe Drew is still trying to understand this.

Bill seems to have stopped considering what we are saying.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Not common at all.

Generally, wind-powered devices extract energy from the relative motion between the device itself and the wind.

A: I consider sailboats, ice-boats and land-yachts to be pretty damn common DD. A sailboat on a broad reach is extracting energy exactly as we are.

B: Even a common wind turbine is extracting energy from the relative motion between the air and the ground -- if you don't believe me, measure the speed of the air relative to the ground before and after it goes through the turbine.

JB

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Why as the Dean Drive supporters was just as sure and their devices even move along the floor.

The only test they fail was hanging them from a string and not getting a fix displacement and their math treatments was a wonder to behold.

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@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Skepticism is good. Denialism is bad.

I believe Drew is still trying to understand this.

Bill seems to have stopped considering what we are saying.

Excellent observations on all points.

JB

0 Replies

@ThinAirDesigns,

Thiairdesigns shame on you bringing up the old ice boats as they do not and can not go over wind speed going with the wind.

Unlike your group claims.

1 Reply

@ThinAirDesigns,

ThinAirDesigns wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Not common at all.

Generally, wind-powered devices extract energy from the relative motion between the device itself and the wind.

A: I consider sailboats, ice-boats and land-yachts to be pretty damn common DD. A sailboat on a broad reach is extracting energy exactly as we are.

A sailboat extracts energy from the speed of the wind relative to itself. It cannot have a downwind vector greater than the wind speed for any extended length of time.

ThinAirDesigns wrote:

B: Even a common wind turbine is extracting energy from the relative motion between the air and the ground -- if you don't believe me, measure the speed of the air relative to the ground before and after it goes through the turbine.

That's because a wind turbine happens to be stationary. The wind speed relative to the device and the wind speed relative to the ground happen to be the same, but it is the speed of the wind (and atmospheric pressure) relative to the turbine that determines how much energy it can extract.

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

A sailboat extracts energy from the speed of the wind relative to itself. It cannot have a downwind vector greater than the wind speed for any extended length of time.

You say 'relative to itself.' But what you really mean is 'relative to the motion the object experiences at rest.'

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Thiairdesigns shame on you bringing up the old ice boats as they do not and can not go over wind speed going with the wind.

Unlike your group claims.

I apologize that I can't make better sense of your fractured sentences. There are several ways to interpret the "with the wind" portion of your statement and I just don't know what you mean for sure, but I'm quite confident that you are mispresenting my position.

Here are the facts:

A: A traditional sailing rig mounted on a sailboat, ice-boat or land-yacht can NOT exceed (or even match) the speed of the wind if the sail is traveling directly downwind.

B: A traditional sailing rig mounted on sufficiently high performance (and readily available) sailboat, ice-boat or land-yacht can, by keeping the sail traveling at some downwind angle to the true wind, maintain a speed where the downwind component of it's travel is faster (much faster) than the speed of the wind. In sailing terms this would be described as having a downwind VMG of greater than windspeed. This also means that if such a craft were to race a balloon which was floating freely and directly downwind to the far (downwind) end of a lake(bed), the craft could handily beat the balloon even though the craft must take a much longer path than the balloon.

Now BillRM, you can agree or disagree with the above, but at least now we're for sure discussing my position and not something that you believe I hold and may not.

JB

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

A sailboat extracts energy from the speed of the wind relative to itself. It cannot have a downwind vector greater than the wind speed for any extended length of time.

You say 'relative to itself.' But what you really mean is 'relative to the motion the object experiences at rest.'

Cycloptichorn

No. I meant what I said. If a sailboat is moving at the same velocity as the wind, it cannot extract energy from the wind.

And since we're discussing frames of reference... "At rest" in relation to what.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

A sailboat extracts energy from the speed of the wind relative to itself. It cannot have a downwind vector greater than the wind speed for any extended length of time.

Wrong on both counts DD.

Here is a link where the the team of BMW Oracle (current America's Cup winner) talk about their ability to sail downwind with a downwind VMG (velocity made good) of twice the speed of the wind.

http://valenciasailing.blogspot.com/2010/02/bmw-oracle-press-conference.html

Here is a link to the land sailors officiating body FAQ which explains in #3 that they regularly achieve downwind VMGs in the 2x range.

http://www.nalsa.org/faq.htm

Until you get past this hitch in understanding, there is simply no way you are going to understand the vehicle. Sailing craft are doing what you claim is inpossible regularly.

JB

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

A sailboat extracts energy from the speed of the wind relative to itself. It cannot have a downwind vector greater than the wind speed for any extended length of time.

You say 'relative to itself.' But what you really mean is 'relative to the motion the object experiences at rest.'

Cycloptichorn

No. I meant what I said. If a sailboat is moving at the same velocity as the wind, it cannot extract energy from the wind.

And since we're discussing frames of reference... "At rest" in relation to what.

The medium in which the device sets. IE, on the ground, zero motion. In a 10 knot current, you have 10 knots of motion (even with the sails furled).

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

I don't understand how this car works.

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