The cult of AA

I don't think Shewolf is saying you wake up one morning and just stop.

I think what she's saying (and this is true with any addiction), is that you make the choice to stop, regardless of how, you choose to stop or to not stop. And stopping is really that simple. The process may not be easy but starting to stop is. We've all stopped something. It is easy. And yes, I do believe it is about willpower. Not necessarily that you will stop based on willpower alone, but the willpower to take back your life. To check into a hospital. To join a group. Toss out the booze. Whatever it takes. And then deal with the struggle of not submitting to your addiction one day at a time.

Each day you wake up, you make the choice to either do or don't. And that makes the whole thing very uncomplicated.

I once had a serious drinking problem. When my health began to head south, I took a look at my alcohol and tobacco problems. Tobacco I quit easily enough. It took three years to be able to resist a drink. It was a true addiction and I could not forgo one drink, or more, almost every day of the three years. I did not seek help, but I think a bit of support from somewhere could have shortened the period of time considerably. I don't have experience with AA in any way shape or form, so will forgo an opinion on it.

No.
You are all hearing me absolutely wrong.

I am not saying in anyway, shape or form you just STOP . That the action, the choice, the lifestyle the decision takes just one second. No.

What I am saying is that, in order to BE sober, to GET sober, to STOP doing something you have to make the decision to just stop taking what ever it is.

Once you have made that choice, the rest will fall into place.
Even edgars story is echoing what I am trying to say .

It is as easy as saying ' No . more'. And once you really have committed to that statement, even if it takes a long time , you are -getting- sober.
My decision for heroin was the same way. The withdrawl was horrible and it is the one thing I would never wish on anyone.
But I did nt have it happen in just a few days, or a few weeks. But I remember the point of knowing , deciding and taking action to stopping my addiction. If I would have stopped cold turkey I might have died. My physical addiction was that bad.
But the decision is what started the action. And you HAVE to make the decision or the action will never happen it IS that simple.

Im not couragous. Im not any thing other then someone who decided to stop something. That doesnt make me a better person, a stronger person or a smarter person. It was a simple decision. The actions afterwords were hell. but the decision was simple.

Do you understand the difference between action and thought?
In order to make an ACTION ( being and getting sober) you have to HAVE the thought ( to stop taking the drug)

do you see why that is simple?

exactly.

But both routes start with a decision.
A decision to 'try' a drug leads to the addict/ addiction ( not for everyone )

The decision to STOP taking a drug leads to the soberand/or getting sober person.

It is that simple.
Adding variables and tossing every variable out there when someone speaks of sobriety IS what makes it complicated.

I dont care how bad an urge someone has to take something. If they decided to not do it, they will work around it. Even if it means going to a methadone clinic to help their body, checking into a treatment facility to work through the mental process or what ever other options there are.
Making the decision is simple. You either do it , or you dont.

I'm not an expert. Just 28 years sober and more than 25 years working professionally in this subject.

Personally, I didn't like the way the AA works (I didn't like to be anonym because I didn't drink anonymously either).

And since there are other selfhelp-groups .... I actually founded two myself, but we alter joined a large selfhelp association.

I don't think that someone wakes up, noticed that she/he is a drug-addict and then stops it.
To my limited experience there's always some pressure behind that.

And even then it's not easy.

But it is really easy to tell that's someone else's fault. Or because the situation was so bad. Or ...


You can't stop it from one moment to the other. And not without help.

But you must want to stop. And accept the help.
And then ... just do it. Stopping.

Good point.
You have to want to stop. I should probably use that statement more then just saying " make the decision". Though , when I say someone has to make the decision I am coming from the thought that the decision is made because someone comes to the point of wanting it. Not forced to , pushed to, or made to.

Yup. People all over the world can want you to stop. But you ain't gonna stop til YOU want to stop.

Yes. But I do think that there's always something behind that wish to stop which forced you to come to it.

I didn't want to die.
And wanted my girl friend back.

I didn't die after I stopped.
(That I married my girl friend 13 years later is only a little bit related to my stopping.)


Others want to keep their job.
Or don't want to go to prison.
Or ...

But I really doubt that someone stops drinking, using drugs just "simply" because she/he wants to stop it.

Those who do so - and without any doubt, many can and could - aren't addicted.
They just drink to much. Or use other drugs more intensively.

I don't remember the last drink I took.
Rather, I remember the first drink I didn't take.

I remember being much sicker than a dog, and looking at that drink.
Like so many times before, I was thinking "I can't do this anymore, I'm killing myself"
It never actually occured to me to stop. Meaning don't take that first one.

I called AA, and they told me there was a meeting starting in a few hours at such and such an address, and could I go that long without drinking?

Funny now, I remember feeling a little indignant, and saying "Well, of course I can." ****, that makes me smile now.

After hanging up I still looked at the booze, and of course it occured to me I'd feel better if I took a drink.
If there was ever any specific moment of clarity, it was then, when I said out loud. "If I take a drink, I'll never stop." I never would have made it to the meeting, never would have tried again, I'm positive. That's just the way I work.
I knew there was no way I wouldn't NOT drink over the next few hours if it was there, so poured it all down the drain.
THAT was the hardest thing I did, watching it go down, willing my hand not to turn back up to take a slug.
That was when I stopped....there was just no going back.

So, I stopped before I went to AA. In all honesty? At first of course it was amazing seeing people not drinking. I did all the right things, blah blah blah...then, I realized it was pretty good entertainment.
I'll be honest, I loved listening at the speaker meetings, to peoples whacked out life stories. I loved it the same way I get into watching those shows about a woman with a 300 lb tumor in her stomach, or the man that has the face of his absorbed twin on his ass.
It kept me busy, when I might have been looking for trouble.
That was the support it gave me, it entertained me and kept me out of mischief.

But you know, you can only listen to that **** for so long. Especially when worthwhile activies were presenting themselves left and right.

After a while, I realized that the people there, the one's who were ALWAYS there, were there because they'd stepped over some line, and now really did make this their entire life. Is that wrong? Not if that's what you decide you want to do. Then it's fine.
The belief that these particular types of people hold, that anyone they don't see anymore are out drinking, or dead, or crazy, is what is irritating.

Imagine being out of shape, and joining a running club.
You start off, start to feel better, keep on running, making friends. Running's pretty good.
Over time, you realize you just not that into running anymore, get introduced to off road biking and think "Wow, this is really satisfying to me! I see so many more possibilities with this, it's fun, and I actually like the group of people that are doing this more. We all just seem to click"
A year or 2 later, you're doing really fantastic, there's no stopping you with this biking stuff. You go on trips, compete, and even think about designing your own bike. You've also discovered you're a good swimmer too.

You occassionally run into people from your running group, who are still running the same circut, taking the same route, at the same speed, every day. "Well.....I haven't seen you around the track for quite awhile....are you.....sitting on the couch, watching TV?"

"Oh hey, hi. Naw I'm not sitting around (you're wondering how this person could say this, as you look ******* amazing.) Actually, I'm into off road biking, and some swimming and fencing now. I'm thinking of de....."

"ohhhhhh....so you haven't been running huh? Welllll, you know...you stop running and you end up watching rerun of Lost and then..."

"No, no, really, I'm in great shape. I'm getting married in 3 months and...."

"Married, huh? Welllllll.....you gotta be careful with getting into these relationships.....I guess she doesn't run either."

"um.....(knowing this will be taken as defensive)....no, actually she doesn't run. She's won medals at cross country skiing, and rock climbs. I don't really do either of those, but, you know, it's good for people to have their own int..."

"well look, we're all gonna meet down at the track later on. I'll tell ya, there would be more than a few people who would be really glad to see your face again. It might be hard for you to get back into the running, but we'll all be there to catch you so you won't fall off again"

"You know (finally getting a little pissed) I really don't LIKE to run. It's a great thing for you, if you like it, but I don't. I doing really wel...."

"yeah, well, just remember, it's your stinkin' thinkin' that got you into the shape you're back in. Sittin' around watching COPS and the History Channel. Just remember you can get off at any floor, you don't have to hit bottom."

(based on actual conversation)

If you think there's a place that doesn't have sexual predators, then you're a fool.

That being said, it makes total sense to me that predators would use AA to find victims.

I once went to a meeting as a requirement for a course I was taking. What it really reminded me of was Scientology. Reliving your experiences over and over again, until you're "clear".

Not a fan of the 12 step method.

I like features of the program, but the religious part and the themes of surrender and powerlessness seem dubious...

A
R
T

Well it's obvious the program did not do anything for you Chai.

Your ridicule of the program and the people in it on A2k thread is sickning and I think you are a disgusting hypocrit.

Well I don't know, really ... not ever having been involved in one of these programs (but knowing friends who have, some of them very close friends) ... I know it's not at all easy, whatever approach a person takes.

I guess my attitude is: what ever gets you through the night/what ever helps you achieve such a challenging goal. Kicking an addiction which has become really destructive to your life is the main thing & should be applauded. However a person got there.

My next door neighbour, though, tells me she goes to local AA meetings most week nights. For around 17 years now. All of her "romantic attachments" during that time have been met there.

Why is she a hypocrit?

A
R
T

This is a good point. I stopped drinking almost 20 years ago. I didn't use AA, i didn't "acknowledge a higher power," i didn't need "friends" to do it--Dog forbid, it was looking at most of those who were my "friends" that was one of the biggest motivations--i didn't need a twelve step, or any other number of steps program to accomplish it. It was time, i was ready, i stopped drinking and have never looked back.

So i usually don't discuss it with folks. The hostility, covert or overt, which i encounter is incredible. I must not really have been a drunk. I most not really have sobered up. I must just be kidding myself, and riding for a fall. I must just fail to acknowledge that i owe my success to a higher power. For whatever may be the (corporate?) motivation of the managing powers of AA, for the true believer, it is one of the most powerful religions out there.

Actually there are.

Or better: there have been - I used the results of quite a few for my thesis, back in 1986.
(The problem might be that here in Germany we've got quite a lot of different kinds of self help groups besides the AA. And that these studies - which I used - focused on the difference to get sober with self help and without.)

That is the most offensive line of utter bullshit I have ever heard from anyone. And it is a common thought.

Funny, im not offended by much but according to that idea, thatI was not addicted to heroin. I wanted to stop because I was tired of it. I was homeless so my family didnt know. I had no job to lose , I was not bankrupt. I stopped because i wanted to.
But I wasnt addicted? ..............wow.

I guess being addicted is all fun and games. That the addict is enjoying himself and his high. Sorry. But there comes a point in your addiction that it isnt about being happy and high anymore. Its about avoiding being sick, avoiding shakes, hallucinations, blood in your vomit, or urine. Its about not being able to hold down food, not being able to SEE physical things, not being able to hold a conversation, drinking / drugging to avoid the intense amout of pain withdrawing brings.

People who have never been addicted like that dont know addiction.

Hell, even cigarette smokers have physical reaction to their drug. And to avoid it, fucntion, sleep ,e tc some just have to keep going.

I can not believe you subscribe to that thought process with 'your minimal exprience' as you put it. I really hope you are just being sarcastic

Its ideas like this that keep addicts "victims" and removes all power they have over themselves and keeps them as the little people society WANTS them to be.

When someones belief system is exposed, explained, opened up and described in unfavorable ways, most of the participants will just resort to insulting someones intelligence and attacking their person instead of making a point. Besides, if you can attack the person who started the conversation / investigation you have a chance of making them look stupid which is easier to do then defend a theory that is presented to stand on toothpicks.

What is your opinion of repealing all of the anti-drug laws?





David