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The cult of AA

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:16 pm
@ebrown p,
Good lord. Next thing we know, you're going to be talking about how the collective has shut down honest debate because of the PC police.

a) It's a thread titled "the cult of AA". Go start your own thread if you want to talk about how wonderful AA is.
b) Check out who started the ridicule and attacks. (Hint: It wasn't the anti-AA people.)
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:24 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Go start your own thread if you want to talk about how wonderful AA is.


I don't think that's an effective way to discuss a particular issue, DD.

Quote:
Check out who started the ridicule and attacks. (Hint: It wasn't the anti-AA people.)


Well, actually, it was the anti-AA folks, but they could hardly do much else if they wanted to give their personal opinions of AA and those opinions were not flattering ones.

One of the risks of free speech, I guess.

DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:32 pm
@JTT,
This is the first personal attack I found on the thread:

Post #3998016
Sglass wrote:

Well it's obvious the program did not do anything for you Chai.

Your ridicule of the program and the people in it on A2k thread is sickning and I think you are a disgusting hypocrit.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:40 pm
@DrewDad,
Fair enough, DD, and duly noted, the pro-AA, specifically, Sglass, started the first of the personal attacks. But you didn't specify 'personal attacks'.

Wouldn't you say it's to be expected, if one holds a certain something in high, regard, something that one believes has saved their life?

I think, overall, and despite the skinned knees, that it was a grand thread. I sure learned a lot.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:55 pm
@failures art,
I had to go to an AA meeting once for a class. I got permission beforehand-told the person who answered the phone that one of my assignments for the class was to observe and write up a 'meeting' for my class- The Psychology of Addiction.
The person on the phone was immediately welcoming to me and encouraged me to come to their meeting - I'd expected, because I'd been told by the professor- that there might be some hesitancy in terms of people wanting outsiders there, and we might have to call around to find a meeting that was okay with it.
I don't know if the people who were at the meeting were told why I was there. I was never asked if I had an addiction of any sort or not by anyone.
I do remember thinking that it seemed like a nice group of people and I wouldn't mind having an excuse to see them again. I never did though.

AA probably saved my brother-in-law's life and my sister's marriage and family. He stopped drinking twenty-two years ago- he was court ordered after about his fifth drunk driving arrest. I think it was AA or losing his licence forever for him.

Anyway - it worked for him - but he's a spiritual person anyway - that's probably why he can buy into the whole higher power thing.

I've also gone to Al-Anon meetings with my best friend from college whose father was a raging alcoholic her entire childhood. She's never had a drink herself, but she's found a lot of usefulness from Al-Anon.
But she's a spiritual person too.

Neither of these people are weak in any way - they just seem to need support to deal with their issues.

And from what I've seen of addiction - whatever works for anyone is certainly better than the alternative.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:58 pm
@ebrown p,
My acquaintances and friends and people I worked with - or at least some of them - made AA their family instead of regular family. I can see why, of course, recognition and solidarity, but I saw family very hurt. Naturally, I cannot judge, except that I saw a lot of cutting off of others than AA folk. Maybe this isn't typical and only my individual observation. But that adds to my take on the side of cult (remember, I quibbled about cult, I might differ on that, not sure.)
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:59 pm
@ossobuco,
My sister credits AA with saving her family- but again - that's anecdotal and individual.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:13 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
at least some of them - made AA their family instead of regular family.


That's kinda ironic.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:16 pm
@JTT,
but real, as they explained at length to me. Well, that was those few people, I can't generalize.

But, that connects to the Children of God group, which I experienced sort of adjacently, re my husband and his family and their close friends. Family became verboten, as I understand it.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:25 pm
@ossobuco,
I'm no expert. I've just seen a few instances of families bereft. I'll also just go ahead and grant that families can be very disturbed and that reaction may be warranted.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:35 pm
On the children of god family, a daughter running off, they never saw her again. I'll have to ask my x if there is anything new - but the parents spent at least a couple of decades blown away.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:35 pm
@ossobuco,
If not AA then what? So far as I know the next best thing is acid, and the moralists have even more objections about that

Quote:
LSD treatment for alcoholism gets new look
Some participants still have not had a drink 40 years after the trials
For the past five years, Dr. Erika Dyck has been unearthing some intriguing facts related to a group of pioneering psychiatrists who worked in Saskatchewan, Canada in the '50s and '60s.

Among other things, the University of Alberta history of medicine professor has found records of the psychiatrists' research that indicate a single dose of the hallucinogenic drug LSD, provided in a clinical, nurturing environment, can be an effective treatment for alcoholism.

Her findings are published this month in the journal Social History of Medicine.

After perceiving similarities in the experiences of people on LSD and people going through delirium tremens, the psychiatrists undertook a series of experiments. They noted that delirium tremens, also know as DTs, often marked a "rock bottom" or turning point in the behavior of alcoholics, and they felt LSD may be able to trigger such a turnaround without engendering the painful physical effects associated with DTs.

As it turns out, they were largely correct.

"The LSD somehow gave these people experiences that psychologically took them outside of themselves and allowed them to see their own unhealthy behavior more objectively, and then determine to change it," said Dyck, who read the researchers' published and private papers and recently interviewed some of the patients involved in the original studies--many of whom had not had a sip of alcohol since their single LSD experience 40 years earlier.

According to one study conducted in 1962, 65 per cent of the alcoholics in the experiment stopped drinking for at least a year-and-a-half (the duration of the study) after taking one dose of LSD. The controlled trial also concluded that less than 25 per cent of alcoholics quit drinking for the same period after receiving group therapy, and less than 12 per cent quit in response to traditional psychotherapy techniques commonly used at that time
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-10/uoa-ltf100606.php
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
Good grief.
I won't attempt to debunk, I'm not privy to the science thereof.

Most of us arguing here aren't totally against AA as useful sometimes.

Some don't like seeing family as pods.
Kidding, but not entirely.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:46 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Good grief.

I won't attempt to debunk, I'm not privy to the science thereof.


I think the trials were going great until they were defunded in the rush to rid the nation of LSD, back when we were naive enough to think that making harsh anti drug laws would get rid of drugs. Oh, wait, we are still that stupid....first we tried banishment with law for alcohol, then drugs, then "inappropriate" sex,,,,always with the same result.

Moving along,,,,having taken acid a few times myself I don't have any doubts that the reported results are reasonable.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:49 pm
@ossobuco,
Hey, if some aliquot of lsd works, I could listen. Right now, it seems like a biggggg stretch.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:01 am
@failures art,
There are different types of AA meetings, and some are closed and some are open. The closed meetings are for people who think they have a problem with alcohol, while the open meetings are just that, they are open to the general public. Anyone who just wants to learn more about AA, or see what a meeting is like, can go to an open meeting. If you would like to learn more about AA, locate an open meeting in your area and sit in on it and just listen to the speakers. You do not have to participate in any way, and you might even be completely ignored by the other people in the room. You can usually pick up some AA literature at those meetings.

About 20 years ago I tried to help a neighbor/friend deal with his alcohol problems by encouraging him to go to AA. This fellow had battled alcohol abuse for a very, very long time and had been in several 28 day inpatient detox treatment programs. He'd manage to stay sober for a while after finishing these programs, but then some sort of stress would make him reach for a drink, and, as he used to say, "Then I was off to the races". He would start out drinking to help him fall asleep at night, but would drink until he passed out. He might not drink during the daytime for weeks on end, but eventually he would start drinking in the morning to relieve the shakes. Once that started, he would pretty much be drinking around the clock, consuming large quantities of alcohol, and he would be intoxicated all of the time. Two weeks of that sort of thing would generally land him back in a detox/rehab program.

When I became friendly with him, his doctor had just told him that his liver was shot from drinking and that he probably could not survive many more of these benders. He must have been in his early 60's at the time, he was a retired widower, and he really didn't want to die. He wanted to stop drinking, but he really didn't think he'd be able to do it. He'd been drinking since his teens. Practically all his friends were also his drinking buddies. He had tried going to some AA meetings but he was turned off by what he felt was the religious nature of the program. He didn't believe in a higher power, and didn't buy alcoholism as being a spiritual problem. He also didn't believe that people going to the AA meetings were even maintaining their sobriety, he thought they were all a bunch of hypocrites who were continuing to drink. But he knew that if he picked up a drink again he was sunk, and that he needed help to keep him from taking that drink. I offered to help him, but only if he would go back to AA. I didn't know much about AA at the time, but I knew it helped some people, and I wasn't sure what else to suggest. I took a ride over to a short term alcohol treatment hospital in my area, picked up some AA literature and a meeting list, and I began lining up meetings for him.

After reading about the need for newcomers to attend 90 meetings in 90 days, to immerse themselves in the program, that idea made a lot of sense to me. My friend protested loudly, very loudly, when I suggested it to him. I insisted he at least try it and told him I'd drive him to the meetings and wait outside in the car for him. If the meetings were open meetings, I'd attend with him. He had devoted at least 40 years to drinking, so 90 days to try to stay sober didn't seem unreasonable. I already had gotten the AA message, I told him to try it one day at a time.

So, for the next several weeks, I drove him to various meetings, one a day, and I sat in on those meetings that were open to the public. I found I was also turned off by the religious nature of the AA philosophy, but I thought it was possible for my friend to ignore all of that, and mainly use the program as a source of social support to help him remain sober. We kept looking for different meetings at different places and different times of day until we found groups he really felt comfortable in. He found two mens groups he really liked, and he soon began making friends who picked him up and drove him to meetings, relieving me of that task most of the time. When he attended groups with women, a few would start coming on to him when they found out he was a widower, and he accumulated quite a few phone numbers but he wisely avoided calling any of them during those first 90 days. And he did manage to make those 90 meetings in 90 days, even though that wasn't always easy for him. If I hadn't pushed him initially to make those 90 meetings, I don't think he would have stuck with AA at all. He needed to prove to himself he could do it, and stick with it for 90 days. At the end of the 90 days he no longer felt it was impossible for him to remain sober, and he now had some new friends who weren't also his drinking buddies. After meetings they'd go out to a diner and they'd get together to watch ballgames on TV on the weekends.

The one message my friend did absorb from those meetings was that he was powerless over alcohol. Although he never surrendered to a higher power, in a spiritual sense, he did admit that he could never control alcohol, and that, if he picked up a drink, it would always control him. He began regarding it as poison, and he claimed the idea of even picking up a drink made him feel slightly ill. He continued to attend at least two or three meetings a week after those first 90 days, but he never had a formal sponsor. He began working on the 12 steps, but found that wasn't really helpful for him. So, in many ways he wasn't working the program as it is intended, but he also didn't feel as though anyone was trying to shove something down his throat. Rather than reject all of AA, he ignored those aspects that bothered him and used those things that were helpful. I don't know whether anyone gave him a hard time about that, but he didn't let it get to him if they did. It was the group support that helped him the most, just being around people who were committed to being sober, and who were there for him if he needed them, and for him that worked. And he thoroughly enjoyed his own sobriety and being able to help others maintain their sobriety. He never did relapse. He attended at least one AA meeting a week for the next four years until his sudden death from a massive heart attack.

I have no idea how typical my friend's experience was. AA meetings and contacts did obiously help him a great deal, but not the formal aspects or the philosophical teachings of the program. He did tune out the cult like dogma. Had he not done that, he probably would not have stuck with AA at all. And those first 90 days were important--pushing himself to those 90 meetings did help him form a bond with AA, and helped him prove to himself he was serious about getting sober.

But so many people, like my friend, may try AA a few times and then not continue, for various reasons. Then, at a later time, they try it again and they are able to connect with something that helps them to stay sober. That sort of pattern makes it very difficult to objectively study the effectiveness of programs like this. What works for one person might not work for another. And it is difficult to parcel out those aspects of AA that are the most beneficial. For some people, AA might become the central focus of their lives, but, for others, like my friend, it might be simply a much needed secondary social support system, and for still others, it might not be beneficial at all. Clearly though, based on my friend's experience, one does not have to swallow the whole program hook, line, and sinker for it to work.











0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 06:31 am
Firefly, this is an amazingly well thought out post.

Much of it, both positive and negative aspects of it, are indeed typical.

The fact that he was able to tune out certain aspects are wonderful. I'm glad he lived his last years happily.


*******

On a side note, not to derail.

I am going to say I am not in some thoroughly anti-AA camp.
As I have stated in this thread, aspects of AA were helpful for me.
AA can and does help some people.

mileage varies.

I also must say I object to any indications I have made insults to anyone else on this thread.....nuff said.

*******

I have done some thinking on objections made that if one wishes to observe an AA meeting, they "lie" to do so.

If one wishes merely to observe, to get the experience full on, I feel the best way is to go "undercover" if you will.

That way, you can be certain that, if you announce you are just there to see what goes on, the group isn't going to make this meeting a round table of how wonderful everthing is.
Believe me, you really want to see the people in their natural environment, to get the full flavor. You may want to go to a few meetings like this, to get the full experience.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:27 am
@aidan,
Which is the ultimate answer to everything: it is individual.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 03:24 pm
@DrewDad,
I am not pro-AA (or anti-AA). I am certainly not one to sing the praises of the group.

I am in this thread because I don't like the closed minded attacks against a group that go far beyond what the facts.

Calling any group a "cult" is an example of ridicule and attack. Thus, the ridicule and attacks were started in the very title of the thread.

And... as I have noted before, the word "cult" has no meaning beyond; "group I don't like". The fact that anyone is seriously putting "Children of God" and AA in the same classification should make this laughably obvious.

DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 04:24 pm
@ebrown p,
Calling it a cult is a bit of hyperbole, but I think getting outraged about it is a bit much.

Quote:
I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.
0 Replies
 
 

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