The cult of AA

Defamation?

Are you kidding me?

If you have not sat in a treatment room with child perps in the country of USA then dont say this isnt true.

You know what they are told?
That they ALSO have an addiction. That beyond their emotiona issues, the behavior is traditional of addictive behavior.

I have SEEN THEM be BUSSED to these groups. Why? For treatment of addiction. Some are alcoholics / drug addicts. Some are not.

defamation. No sir. Not at all. Its fact.

Thanks Roger.

I suppose I would have answered you directly ebrown, but I have you on ignore, and won't be taking you off for this discussion. That's not a point for debate. For me, you never bring anything pertinent to any discussion, on any topic.

True, I don't recall having said any of that.

However, here is a cut and paste of signs of a cult....
If anyone would care to present other signs of a cult, I'm fairly sure they would apply here also

Isolate them in new surroundings apart from old friends or reference-points;
90 meetings in 90 days, drop current friends, have no association with them....While I totally agree it's important to distance yourself from your still drinking friends, if you go to Weight Watchers, let's say, no one is going to tell you that you must drop all your friends who are overweight, and have nothing to do with them.

Provide them with instant acceptance from a seemingly loving group;
Again, you are confused, fearful, maybe angry. You are instantly welcomed by people you know nothing about. Apart and separate from drinking, many of these people lives are way more fucked up than yours, and they are supposed to be your support, your new family.

Keep them away from competing or critical ideas;
Don't listen to friends or family, don't do any scientific research on your own. We are fellow alcoholics, and we know best. If you listen to these ideas, you will die, end up in prison, or a mental institution (that is a phrase you hear over and over and over again. Maybe you end up in prison because you raped, beat up, or did something else while you are sober. Maybe you end up in a mental institution because your are mententally ill. Guess what, we all die)

Provide an authority figure that everyone seems to acknowledge as having some special skill or awareness;
Bill Wilson, the Big Kahuna. From what I can tell, Total Douchebag also. But, while having DT's or something, he had this revelation, so that's all she wrote....Also, the lessor saints, those who are labels "gurus" who may be fucked up as football bats as far as their own lives, but have a really entertaining story to tell, and have memorized whole chapters of the Big Book, which they love to quote..."On page 158 of the Big Book it says...."

Provide a philosophy that seems logical and appears to answer all or the most important questions in life;
ok, I love this one...the AA philosophy can be summed up in the following "Dont think, Don't drink and Come to a meeting"
yeaaahhh.....

Structure all or most activities so that there is little time for privacy or independent action or thought, provide a sense of "us" versus "them";
Oh....it goes far beyong 90 meetings in 90 days when you first get there (that can actually be enormously helpful, if you haven't drunk for 90 days, you're sure to be better able to look at what's going on in your life. However, it's suggested (one is never told to do anything, it's always suggested) you go to at least one meeting every day....for the....rest.....of....your....life.
If you aren't there 1 day, or at a different time, God bless you, you'll be interrogated by any number of your new family as to your whereabouts.

Promise instant or imminent solutions to deep or long-term problems;
heh...there is actually a portion in this Big Book called the Promises. They sound fine as far as they go, but....am I really going to rely on these people to help me solve my problems? Am I going to listen to them when they tell me not to take some medications perscribed because "it'll lead you to drink"...Excuse me crazy guy Frank, or secretary at the power plant Lillian...where did you earn your medical degree? Oh, and about my marital problems, problems with my teenager...where did you get your phychology degrees?

Woo hoo! (I really wish A2K would at least make this statistic available, but now I know I have at least two).

The act of ignoring opinions that challenge your point of view is deliciously ironic in the context of this particular discussion.

((maybe I even warrant a 12-step group))

Hey girl.

That's it in a nutshell.

Teaches people to never let go of their alcoholism.

If someone wants to go to AA, that's great.
I got sober there.
I'd like to say that if AA didn't exist, I would not have stopped drinking, and that I know I would be dead.

But, I can't say that, because, if AA didn't exist, in all probability something else, maybe even something else more helpful, would be around.
Maybe something that didn't tell you that if you stopped going there you'd die.

Funny thing, once I stopped drinking, all sorts of interesting things presented themselves to me.
I had to make some choices.
Lessee, should I sit in a stinky smokey room listening to nutbag Frank one more time, or....go to the gym, take that photography class, go on a date with that really nice guy who treats me with respect, take that new job that pays more, try that new restaurant, etc. etc.

Sexual predetors?
Christ Almighty, don't get me started.

Ok, I'm already started....

These anecdotes are just 2 of the one's I clearly remember from sometime during the FIRST THREE MONTHS of going to AA...

I'm new, maybe a month in. My sponsor says "go over and talk to that girl, she's only been sober a couple of days"
Now, on a positive note I will say I very much remember what it felt like to have not had a drink for 2 whole days, and to meet someone who hasn't drunk for a month (OMG, Really!? A month? Wow)
She was very sweet, and we talked every day.
A couple of weeks later, the short of it was that she was seduced (call it rape? naw, how can you rape someone who is obviously consentual, never mind that the girl couldn't make up her mind what to eat or wear each day at that point) by some guy who'd been around for years...a real sleaze.
Just like in the first video, no one had warned her of this guy (I didn't know anything about him...yet). No one stepped up and told her, after seeing him engage her in conversation, that he'd made his rounds among other new girls.

She told me the whole story of how it happened, and I was appalled.
I only saw her a couple of times after that.
Not too many days later, this same guy called me on the phone. I don't know how he got my number, but that's another thing that happens. You give your private info to someone you trust, it's all over (that's another story)
The ************ started in with the same line of seduction that the girl told me he used on her. Would I have let him **** me if I hadn't known what he'd said/done to that girl? Probably not, he grossed me out. But, it obviously worked with others.

Right around this same time after a meeting, I was "separated from the pack" by these 2 guys who asked me if I wanted to go to some AA dance that was going on right then, down the street. "We can all go together, in Tom's car."
Again, both these guys were creepy, and I said no, I was going home, since I was working a 2nd job and had to get up in the morning (true). Here's where these 2 bastards used one of these AA cliches..."Never refused an AA request"
Fortunatly, between their creepyness factor, and the fact I didn't like dances, I said "I didn't go to dances when I drank, and I'm not going to go to them now."
I was not about to get into a car with any man, let alone these two, but how many women would? How many wouldn't have refused this "AA request"? All they needed was one.

I didn't know it at the moment, but both of these men had been in prison. Both were real freaks, and it still makes my stomach tighten when I think of them, more than 2 decades later.

I could ******* go on for pages with more of the same.

For fans of Penn and Teller....

still all true....

Maybe not, but that is the way anything is improved. Someone thinks they can do better. That is smart.



Oh, but these principles have everything to do with curing one's self of alcoholism: self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done and working with others.

If the support group, AA, is being demonized in the way this person is describing, then it has certainly changed. I know many people who were helped by AA. One family member while she served a 2-year sentence for getting too many d.w.i.'s. It could be that this person on the audio could find a different AA support group. It was meant to be a support group, not a group of manipulative people.

Yeah, I remember going over to the house of this guy named Wally for hot sex, after sitting across the room from each other at a meeting.

I wonder what ever happened to him?

That makes sense..

what?

Wow....ya'll need to watch this video, seriously....

I'm not gonna address her talk of a cure, I have no opinion on that.

However, her talk of sugar, caffeine, depression, anxiety are spot on...

there's not much about AA that actually does make sense other than some people's need to deny personal responsibilitity. Life is ever so much easier when every time I **** up it's not my fault.

damn, I'll have to chase that back. Something you said did.

damn good point.


and yes. Getting sober IS as easy as just making the decision to NOT do ( drugs, alcohol.. etc. etc..blah blah ) again.
It really IS that easy.

Withdrawing is a side effect. Yup.
Emotional roller coaster is another.. check

may issues.
But, take responsibility. You dont become an addict by LOOKING at alcohol.
Make the decision. You wont STOP being drunk by continuing to drink.
And find something else to do. You dont NEEd aa to survive.
But you DO need aa for a life long excuse, and a way to stay in the drunk mentality and obsession.

I flubbed up, but this was what I was responding to..

http://able2know.org/topic/145152-2#post-3997052

During my divorce, I attended a few meetings of Al-Anon. I brought my daughter with me and she briefly attended Alateen.

Whether or not my former husband was an alcoholic, I am not qualified to say. I will say that during the marriage, any photo taken of me showed "a woman who looks like she is ducking a blow." I nearly lost my ability to communicate, I was afraid to drive, I developed two different psychosomatic illnesses then agoraphobia. The agoraphobia did it . . . that and the recommendation that my son (second born child) be put into counseling. My daughter already was in counseling. I felt if one child in a family is in therapy, maybe the problem is within the child, but that a second child in a family is put into therapy, then the problem is not with the child but the family.

We began family therapy along with my son's therapy. During the first session, I decided to seek my own aid and my social worker asked me, "Does he drink?" The light dawned on Marble Head.

I regarded Al-Anon as a temporary step but while an attendee, I met people who were clearly addicted to Al-Anon meetings . . . who had been attending for 12, 17, 20+ years and who went to several meetings each week. At the first meeting, I resolved to attend for not longer than 6 months. I saw Al-Anon as a tool and not as a way of life.

I was glad that my daughter attended for only a short time. I felt the process of creating tears and salvation was just too much for a 15 year old.

Methinks that anecdotal evidence falls a tad short of making one an expert.

so you are saying that those who have done drugs, or drank like a fish , DIDNT make the choice to stop? DIDNT make the choice to do something else?

If they didnt make the choice, they would still be doing it.

Thats not being an expert. Thats pointing out what it requires to get sober. just stop. Its simple.

The consequences of stopping may not be simple.
Withdraw hurts. Dont make me tell you of my heroin withdraw.

Changing your life may not be simple
Getting doctors help may be even impossible for some.

The consequences of the choice are where the problems lay. Not the choice itself. Dont confuse the too.

unless you want to claim to be some 'expert'

I'm saying that the stories behind one person's recovery do not provide the pathway to quitting for everyone. Of course if you stop, you stop, but it's not really that simplistic.

Not everyone is you. I applaud the strength you've shown and I wish it was that "easy" for everyone.

It may be that simple for some people.

It is not that simple for all people.

Kudos for you on how you were able to manage it.

I would not recommend suggesting that it is possible for all people. Managing addiction is not a simple matter of willpower for all people.

The routes out of addiction are as variable as the routes in.

ehbeth, there does come a time, no matter how you do it, when you....just....stop.

It really is that uncomplicated.