10
   

“I am unalterably opposed to discrimination of any sort”, do you agree or disagree?

 
 
electronicmail
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:40 pm
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
Speaking of "bigoted," many of the white political conservatives I knew as I was growing up were most definitely racially bigoted.

Politically bigoted is for sure. I remember November 1963 and friends of my parents throwing parties because they didn't like Kennedy. My parents thought it was in bad taste and macabre to boot so they turned down those invitations. Bigoted isn't necessarily racial.

That's why I don't believe Rand Paul is bigoted. Mr/Ms Brown here on the other hand definitely is. But that's just my opinion.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:43 pm
@electronicmail,
But what sort of Republicans and Democrats were they? Perhaps this is not your intention, but you're using a disingenuous argument here. At that point in our country's history, BOTH parties had a left wing and a right wing. (Granted, the issues were different then. That was before abortion was legalized and homosexuality was mainstreamed.) The Democratic U.S. Senators who voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act were politically CONSERVATIVE. Some of them were so reactionary, they'd probably make you to appear liberal in comparison. The Republican Senators who voted for the bill were politically MODERATE or LIBERAL. The leadership of the Republican party began to court the segregationist vote with the "Southern strategy." Over time BOTH parties underwent the process of either the right wing or the left wing of their party diminishing so that today both parties are extremely slanted towards the left or the right. There is no political center anymore. Incidentally, George Herbert Walker Bush opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act and once denounced Martin Luther King Jr. as an "extremist."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:45 pm
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
It's just like political liberals who say that they are personally opposed to abortion but don't want to impose their moral views upon others. (Yes, I'm pro-life.) Regarding these two different issues, both groups are hypocritical.


How might it be hypocritical that one doesn't want to impose their personal moral views on another? Would you have everyone be Mormon or Lutheran or Jewish or Catholic depending on your moral/religious view?

Affirmative action was needed to redress the incredible inequities that segregation engendered.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:49 pm
@electronicmail,
Just so I'm not misunderstood, I have dear friends on both sides of the political spectrum. I don't choose my friends on the basis of political ideology. I identified myself as being totally liberal when I was a young guy. I no longer do. Today I consider myself to be neither a conservative nor a liberal. I guess that makes me Nowhere Man. Smile But, anyway, even then I had good friends who were politically conservative. Just so you won't get the wrong impression about me.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:56 pm
@JTT,
While they were opposing civil rights legislation, the segregationists were saying that you can't legislate morality. But there is a very real sense in which you can. Please don't misunderstand me. I was just as opposed to Jim Crow as anyone else. Racism has always disgusted me. Phyllis Schlafly and all the others of her ilk never had a problem with it until it became politically expedient to claim otherwise. A historian whose name I've forgotten once said that Jim Crow was eerily similar to the German Nazi Nuremberg Decrees.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 12:57 pm
@electronicmail,
Quote:
But the fact remains that more Republicans than Democrats voted for Civil Rights legislation when the roll was called. It would never have passed otherwise.


Is this honest dishonesty or dishonest dishonesty?
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 01:04 pm
@JTT,
Again, what was the ideological orientation of those Republicans? Most of the Republicans who supported civil rights legislation were MODERATE or LIBERAL. I have lived in the state of Texas since 1959. The state's first Republican Senator since Reconstruction was John G. Tower, who was a political conservative. His voting record on race-related bills in the U.S. Senate was IDENTICAL to the voting records of Southern segregationist Democratic Senators and Congressman.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 01:05 pm
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
I'm opposed to marriage licenses being given to homosexual and lesbian couples, if only for the reason that marriage is an exclusive institution.


Slavery was an exclusive institution, as was segregation. Marriage isn't at all exclusive. Any old church can marry people, JPs can marry people, if I'm not mistaken there's provision for living together to be viewed as marriage.

Quote:
I'm disgusted with the ACLU representing NAMBLA for free.


Is this because you don't like the first amendment, because you think folks should pay their own way, or you don't like certain people/groups to freely associate?

Quote:
I even favor the censoring of pornography, which makes me a reactionary (I guess) on this issue.


I'm a little puzzled, Wmw. People should be able to make their own choices only when you deem that it's a good thing.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 01:42 pm
@JTT,
Hi. I will admit that I'm far more of a moralist than I am a Constitutionalist, and I think in terms of what is best for society in the long run. (Not that I think I'm morally superior. I've been forced to be humble by the many mistakes I've made in my own life.) I'm really an odd duck in this forum. I can't become a liberal or a conservative. In a very real way, I'm apolitical. I guess I'm the one who's confused! Laughing
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 01:59 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
Do you get the impression that Foxfyre has returned with a new username?
(that's the impression I have)

EM actually admitted to using a bad example, which is pretty close to admitting a mistake. I don't think Foxfyre ever genuinely admitted to making a mistake in all of her time on A2K.

So, if it's her, she has undergone a significant change.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 02:20 pm
@joefromchicago,
Good answer. Thanks.

(I still think that electronicmail is actually foxfyre)
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 05:13 am
@electronicmail,
Quote:
Speaking of "bigoted," many of the white political conservatives I knew
as I was growing up were most definitely racially bigoted.
electronicmail wrote:
Politically bigoted is for sure. I remember November 1963 and friends of my parents throwing parties because they didn't like Kennedy. My parents thought it was in bad taste and macabre to boot so they turned down those invitations. Bigoted isn't necessarily racial.

That's why I don't believe Rand Paul is bigoted. Mr/Ms Brown here on the other hand definitely is. But that's just my opinion.
So far as I understand, the word means someone with strong opinions,
purportedly deriving from a Viking who refused to kneel and kiss the foot
of the King of England, saying something like "not me, by God" (bi Got) in his native language.


In other words, it means having the courage
to stand up for your convictions.





David
electronicmail
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 05:31 am
@djjd62,
Quote:
i believe his point goes like this, history is filled with folks who won primaries but not elected office

Thank you for this explanation of his post. I appreciate all comments and I try to understand them. But that poster doesn't speak of history: when he says Rand Paul will never get elected in November he does prophesy. Later he claims I'm a lady of his acquaintance: that's claiming telepathic powers. I'm sorry I do neither prophesy nor telepathy.

Rand Paul and the Tea Party are new manifestations of a Libertarian strain in American politics that goes back to the founding of the Republic. I'd like to know how he and the Tea Party can avoid the pitfalls of Goldwater's 1964 campaign. In my research I came across this stunning insight, with which I'll close my participation here:
Quote:
Goldwater was doomed even before he started, his fate settled by the bullets in Dealey Plaza.

http://reason.com/archives/2002/03/01/he-was-right/singlepage
There's more:
Quote:
.....the bullets that cut down Kennedy that November ricocheted crazily through the ranks of his political enemies. Though the assassin was a lifelong Marxist who had defected to the Soviet Union and was seeking a visa to Cuba only weeks before the shooting, the blame, unaccountably, settled on the American right.

In our day the political element is inextricably linked with the racial one, making opposition to Obama's policies even easier to label with what I consider as calumny. Finally moving on to the crux of the matter:
Quote:
Nothing was more problematic than the civil rights issue -- particularly the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which outlawed most forms of racial discrimination. ...{Goldwater} understood, too, that government-mandated affirmative action was merely the flip side of segregationist racialism: "It reintroduces through the back door the very principle of allocation by race that makes compulsory segregation morally wrong and offensive to freedom." And, that, to Barry Goldwater, was the bottom line. "Our aim, as I understand it, is neither to establish a segregated society nor to establish an integrated society," he said. "It is to preserve a free society."

Thank you all for posting here. I've learned a great deal from you.


OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 05:37 am

That is ABSOLUTELY TRUE about Oswald assassinating Goldwater's political career.
It was a great blessing for Lyndon Johnson.





David
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 11:54 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Greetings, David. I looked up the meaning of the word "bigot" in an unabridged dictionary. The entry defined the word as follows: "a person who is utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own." Your understanding of the word's meaning is correct, but I would disagree with you slightly that a person who has the courage to stand for his convictions is always a bigot. For example, the late Dr. Andrei Sakharov certainly had the courage of his convictions to condemn the Soviet regime for its horrendous violations of human rights; and he paid a heavy price for his public stance. But he didn't want to kill anyone. I strongly believe in the existence of God, yet my friends include atheists (even though I strongly disagree with their views about God). I will even say that one of my atheist friends, who is a sociology professor, has had a very beneficial impact in my life -- not because he's an atheist, but because he's had some insight into certain other matters that has enabled him to give me some counsel that I had desperately needed for many years. I might also add that even when I was a young guy and considered myself to be very liberal politically, I still had conservative friends whose association I valued because they were nice guys.

The word "bigot" also has a negative connotation. For example, a racist bigot -- an anti-black white person, an anti-white black person, an anti-Semite, etc. -- is intolerant of PEOPLE, and may even pose a potential threat to others to a greater or lesser degree. Of course, totalitarian movements have typified bigotry to the extreme with the radical actions their adherents have taken towards those who have been their opponents or even people who simply would not support them.

I fear that some of my comments and observations in this topic may have upset you and that you may be disappointed in me. Believe me, I don't fit neatly into any ideological camp. Actually, I don't fit in at all. Politically I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative. I would say that I'm apolitical and rather independent in my thinking. My current views on different issues would be met with disapproval by most members of this forum, depending on the issue. I hope you will still consider me a friend, despite any differences.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 12:10 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
Greetings, David. I looked up the meaning of the word "bigot" in an unabridged dictionary. The entry defined the word as follows: "a person who is utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own." Your understanding of the word's meaning is correct, but I would disagree with you slightly that a person who has the courage to stand for his convictions is always a bigot. For example, the late Dr. Andrei Sakharov certainly had the courage of his convictions to condemn the Soviet regime for its horrendous violations of human rights; and he paid a heavy price for his public stance. But he didn't want to kill anyone. I strongly believe in the existence of God, yet my friends include atheists (even though I strongly disagree with their views about God). I will even say that one of my atheist friends, who is a sociology professor, has had a very beneficial impact in my life -- not because he's an atheist, but because he's had some insight into certain other matters that has enabled him to give me some counsel that I had desperately needed for many years. I might also add that even when I was a young guy and considered myself to be very liberal politically, I still had conservative friends whose association I valued because they were nice guys.

The word "bigot" also has a negative connotation. For example, a racist bigot -- an anti-black white person, an anti-white black person, an anti-Semite, etc. -- is intolerant of PEOPLE, and may even pose a potential threat to others to a greater or lesser degree. Of course, totalitarian movements have typified bigotry to the extreme with the radical actions their adherents have taken towards those who have been their opponents or even people who simply would not support them.

I fear that some of my comments and observations in this topic may have upset you and that you may be disappointed in me. Believe me, I don't fit neatly into any ideological camp. Actually, I don't fit in at all. Politically I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative. I would say that I'm apolitical and rather independent in my thinking. My current views on different issues would be met with disapproval by most members of this forum, depending on the issue. I hope you will still consider me a friend, despite any differences.
U did not upset me, Bill.
I have had liberal and commie-loving girlfriends.
In the 1940s, my next door nabor was a Stalin-loving commie
and I took care of his dog for him. I had an uncle who was a nazi;
during WWII, the FBI caught him with a swastika bearing flag in his underwear drawer.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, including to opinions
that the liberals don t like that u mentioned about connotations hereinabove.
If that be bigotry, then as Patrick Henry woud say: "let us make the most of it."

I 'd be disinclined to hire a commie or a nazi;
either of them coud accuse me of being a bigot.





David
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 12:15 pm
@electronicmail,
Quote:
Rand Paul and the Tea Party are new manifestations of a Libertarian strain in American politics that goes back to the founding of the Republic.


You may note that extremely few elected officials are, in fact, Libertarian. The reason is that people respect Libertarianism in theory, but don't want it in practice, because the stringent rules it calls for do not function in our real world.

Cycloptichorn
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 12:21 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
Hi. I will admit that I'm far more of a moralist than I am a Constitutionalist,
and I think in terms of what is best for society in the long run. . . .
Violation of the Constitution, robbing people of their personal freedom is immoral in the extreme.
The contrary philosophy exhorts government to USURP power
in order to enforce an artificial equality that is not found in nature,
not even between "identical twin" brothers.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 12:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Rand Paul and the Tea Party are new manifestations of a Libertarian strain in American politics that goes back to the founding of the Republic.
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You may note that extremely few elected officials are, in fact, Libertarian. The reason is that people respect Libertarianism in theory, but don't want it in practice, because the stringent rules it calls for do not function in our real world.
Cycloptichorn
The Bill of Rights was meant to cripple government in its domestic power, to the glory of personal freedom.
A citizen can be very libertarian and anti-liberal just by demanding
that government not exceed the Constitutional limitiations of the Bill of Rights.

When citizens vote Republican, it is a pro-libertarian effort.





David
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 12:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Violation of the Constitution, robbing people of their personal freedom is immoral in the extreme.
and it does not promote the best society either. The best societies are made up of fully formed and smart people who can sift through ideas and choose the best ones. When we set up the police/nanny state we produce stupid people who can not be anything but pawns. We just had the Iraq experience, were we have seen the result of 40+ years of dictator control, remove the dictator and nobody has any clue what to do, how to behave. And yet we still believe that the spreading state control over our lives is a good thing because it "keeps us save"....

WAKE THE **** UP PEOPLE!!
 

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